The end to the UK's new carriers?

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A £1bn cost over-run is threatening the future of the publicly-funded project to build Britain's biggest aircraft carriers, the BBC has learnt.

A memorandum from the lead contractors seen by the BBC suggests there will "be a fight for the programme's survival".

BBC


Could this be the the end to the UK's new carrier fleet? and weren't the new type 45's that have been built designed as air defence ships designed to protect these new carriers leaving them with little to do if these aren't built?
 
Why does everything always go over budget - surely this means that whoever is calculating the budgets is utterly useless and should be sacked?
 
Why does everything always go over budget - surely this means that whoever is calculating the budgets is utterly useless and should be sacked?

More a case if the specs changing as tech improves/things are learned and deemed "necessary, and the fact that they are long term projects - you would need a very accurate crystal ball to guess how things like steel, fuel and strength of currency changes over the sort of time periods these projects work on (you can at times from what I understand allow a 20%+ contingency fund and still go over budget).
 
More a case if the specs changing as tech improves/things are learned and deemed "necessary, and the fact that they are long term projects - you would need a very accurate crystal ball to guess how things like steel, fuel and strength of currency changes over the sort of time periods these projects work on (you can at times from what I understand allow a 20%+ contingency fund and still go over budget).

Then why bother having a budget period - why not double the budget always to make sure you fall within it thus you can allocate funds correctly and anything left over is a "bonus" that can be spent elsewhere...
 
If they do get cut then surely there will huge penalties to pay out for breaking the contracts?


Corus has won a contract to supply 80,000 tonnes of steel to the Royal Navy for its two new aircraft carriers.

The steelmakers beat off international competition to win the £65m deal.

BBC


Thought they had signed the contract to have them built as well?
 
Then why bother having a budget period - why not double the budget always to make sure you fall within it thus you can allocate funds correctly and anything left over is a "bonus" that can be spent elsewhere...

You have the budget and try to keep to it, but if say the price of the main elements in the build go up by 50% (as I think happened with steel for a while), there is usually very little you can do about it except to try and make up for some of that elsewhere in the build.
Likewise sometimes if a supplier is late in supplying something, it can be cheaper to pay more for it from elsewhere, than delay the whole thing.

Basically in a project that is likely to take 5-10 years you can work out a rough budget, allow a percentage for cost changes/inflation and if you're lucky it'll work out ok, if you're unlucky you might be heading towards going over budget by year 3-5 (but might claw back closer to the budget if the prices swing the other way).


IIRC since these prjects began the price of raw materials shot up for a while (copper and steel), the price of oil has gone up massively and back down, the pound is currently worth about 20% less than it was 9 months ago, and about 10% less than it was a year or so ago against the dollar.
 
the biggest problem with going over budget is the people on the project get paid, the project is delayed, and every day its delayed the people are still getting paid the same amount.

They need to start making contracts that are payment for the entire project, not a weekly wage, that way workers work faster, get the job done, people don't mess around and these projects come in on time and on budget.

When you've got thousands of workers, often with no follow up contracts gaurenteed, and a job they think the government will pay through the teeth rather than stop midway through, would you be working to your maximum speed each and every day, a lot of people won't.

Say a project to build one ship has a budget based on saleries for 12 months, but it takes 18 months to build due to delays and problems, those same people are paid 50% more, and the saleries for everyone involved adds up to ridiculous numbers, construction costs don't really increase, it takes X amount of steel to build a ship of y size, if you take 12 months or 6 years, its still the same amount of steel, the variable is wages, and the last time a government project was delivered on time, well, it was probably the aqueduct, and I'm sure slackers were whipped, then thrown in the arena.
 
we could just not go to war then we wont need these. solved.

You would be great to have around if a country attacked us.

Why don't we just spend the budget on red carpet and you can stand there and roll it out for the invading forces? :rolleyes:
 
This is quite serious, if we lose the carriers then what's going to happen to the F35 JSFs we've been planning on buying? No carriers then no point having F35s. Then you have the added complication that the UK have been bitching to the US government about access to the technology behind the F35 for BAE Systems, the only leverage we had was that we were going to buy up to 200 of the damn things. If we don't order F35 then BAE's participation in the project is called into question, BAE might finally lose patience with the UK government and might change HQ from the UK to the US.

To summarise it would seem that we can't afford these aircraft carriers, but we also can't afford not to have them. This has the potential to be utterly dire for UK defence industry, for jobs and the economy in general.
 
we could just not go to war then we wont need these. solved.

Go join the stupid CND. God did watching those hippies at Glastonbury annoy me.

We need armed forces of all types and a strong one at that. For both deterrent and if something did happen. Rogue states need to be kept in check. Countries need international help and policing. Then there's all the other work we do, AID, anti pirating and a 101 other things.

i can't see us loosing them, big milliatry contracts help the economy so much.
 
I love all this speculation, I have been doing some work on the Hanger doors for Babcocks and from what I have seen/heard they are pressing ahead with the work as planned.

KaHn
 
i can't see us loosing them, big milliatry contracts help the economy so much.

People don't understand how much work is filtered down from these defense contracts.

Hell I imagine that pretty much every british fabrication company has done a little bit of work for the MoD.

KaHn
 
People don't understand how much work is filtered down from these defense contracts.

Hell I imagine that pretty much every british fabrication company has done a little bit of work for the MoD.

KaHn

Exactly, who said that war was the best way to restore the economy. Wise bloke.

Rather than making money and filtering it out to pointless people. Use contracts taht actually help teh country and keep people in jobs. Same debt, but one gets much better results than the other.
 
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