The Game Changers - Cameron, Schwarzenegger, Chan

[Combat squirrel]

This looks really good, I'll be watching this one for sure !

 

[Combat squirrel]

I think ianh completely missed the point....if an elite human can easily perform on a plant based diet then obviously Joe average can more than thrive off it.

 

[Combat squirrel]

So much misinformation in this thread it's worrying, along with words like 'propoganda' to things someone doesn't agree with.

Love how some people are disagreeing with experts.

Sign of the times I suppose, part of the information war were living through.

 

[Combat squirrel]

The problem is that, like almost every issue, there are genuine experts on both sides of a discussion, so which experts do you listen to?

The world wide accepted way is, take 2 experts who pose an hypothesis & then physically test and experiment with that.

This doc - which I doubt anyone has watched yet - £7 on itunes btw. Shows real improvement for these elite switching to a plant based diet.

This is stage 1 in finding facts - preliminary results which indicate a trend as to which expert you should more likely 'believe' - because facts dont care about opinions.

 

[Combat squirrel]

Right ocuk iv just watched it all start to finish.

All I can say is this film is essential viewing, for your life, every petty daft comment iv read about us apparently being omnivorous or 'needing' meat is scientifically destroyed, the doc even sites all the information sources as it presents the information. It shows proper scientific tests of meat vs plant eaters measured correctly - meat eating ruins athletes - the doc addresses and brilliantly and factually removes any comments about being pro meat.

I completely understand people will argue based on their opinion, but that's irrelevant now, people can spout off their opinion on a forum all they like it won't change facts.

For the sake of your life and your families life this thing is essential viewing.

10/10 because it will immeasurably help people.

Those that choose to shun it do so with baffling ignorance.

Go on ocuk I DARE you to watch it.

 

[Combat squirrel]

You know what, there's a website which is free to read.

The principle of eating more vegetables is fine and that appears to be its bottom line even to the point of promoting no animal products at all.

However I greatly doubt eating a healthy diet which includes meat is significantly worse than vegetables forever.

People stuffing themselves and eating unbalanced diets is far more of a health crime to me.

Well as per the peer reviewed scientific papers, there appears to be literally no benefit to eating meat at all - only a much longer list of cons - not even B12 comes from meat I was surprised to find! It comes from gut bacteria found in soil/river water - the only reason it ends up in meat is animals eat or drink off the ground, and store the b12 in their bodies, which some humans then eat......... our ultra clean water systems caused a b12 deficit in humans.

 

[Combat squirrel]

10/10 review, would read again

Haha your welcome Now, go watch the doc, and post your thoughts.

 

[Combat squirrel]

Where the F is Jackie Chan? 2/10 thread sucks.

Producer of the show, did you watch it ?

 

[Combat squirrel]

I watched the trailer. I will be watching the rest when home.

Good stuff, its a great watch as well as informative.

 

[Combat squirrel]

Meat isn't the issue. It's the mass farming that is an issue however that isn't only a meat problem. The solution is to eat sustainable sourced meat AND fruit/Veg. I'm guilty of using a supermarket for my meat simply due to convenience but I am aware that I should be going to local butchers/farmers for that.

All good and well saying "vegan diet protects the world" whilst ignoring the massive carbon footprint involved with transporting your fancy quinoa and avocados from South America. Hell, even the local farmers who grew avocados for their own are unable to afford them now cause all the healthy trends make it too expensive for them. That's also ignoring how much land needs to be stripped back from farming - taking away habitats for native wildlife.

the farming industry does have an effect on the world and they do need to look at what they can reduce but lets not pretend that Veganism is the way forward to save the planet (unless you're only eating and growing seasonal veg in your garden) You need a hell of a lot more space to grow enough produce with the same nutritional benefit of meat.

So in short, if you really cared about the planet you'd only eat what can be found/sourced locally. I expect most the ones shouting the loudest wont do that though. They need their super-foods imported from all over the world.

You need to watch the documentary - they have factual information about your points about farming there - in short, nearly the whole planet feeds livestock - remove the meat and all of a sudden we have left over spare space to grow everything to feed everyone, the carbon footprint to transport food is a fraction of 1 % of what farming on that scale does.

Anyways, watch the show - it answers your points, also as you say, just buy local veg, issue solved.

 

[Combat squirrel]

I think the comments coming from a great many people are similar to a conversation I just had with a friend.

He was talking about how the entire of Russia is currently mocking Greta about her environmental campaigns.

I mentioned I face a similar problem talking about a plant based diet - the point being anytime some new information comes to light, even if that info is fact based, and is backed by observation & scientific testing, the real issue is convincing people of the truth, because the truth is often inconvenient to them or a group of people.

On a massive scale, Greta is talking total sense - but that's very inconvenient to the Russians way of life, indeed most of their entire economy depends on it, so they will ignore facts and try their best to ridicule her.

On a personal micro scale - my own life journey I have discovered that indeed the main contributer to the two main western diseases heart attacks and cancer is meat products or animal products, being on an equal footing with an inactive life style. Sure you can run marathons like no bodies business, but it will not offset a high animal product diet - its not just the meat your eating in short.

However my main point of this post is (relating to the topic) - how do you convince people of factual information ?

The main issue of our times is this very problem - perhaps it deserves its own thread - people find it so very very easy to dismiss others views swiftly, because they don't agree with it - yet facts stand, regardless of opinion.

Its very easy in some ways to find the truth, you can have scientific studies, but you need to look at who funds them, pro meat clients or pro vegan clients........after 1000s of peer reviewed papers, somewhere somehow the truth begins to slowly emerge - however truth is, often highly annoying to a great many people.

How do we as a people address this problem? Meat eating, Greta, brexit, all of these issues to solve, all revolve around - what really is the truth ? How do we protect fact from political/human meddling ?

 

[Combat squirrel]

You keep saying "fact" instead of "opinion" -

Food

One set of "experts" say X is true and another set of equally believable "experts" say X is false so why should we listen to you state "as fact" that you and your experts are right and everyone else and their experts are wrong? What proof do we uneducated plebs have that the highly technical scientific data that the scientists present is accurate when no "impartial" body is agreeing with one side or the other and the research the other experts provide refutes the previous experts claims as the pendulum swings the argument each way?

Greta

The Russian aren't ignoring facts, everyone agrees that some form of Climate Change is real, even the Russians. The problem the Russians and most of the West have is not with Greta's warnings (we've known about it for the past 45 years), but instead it's all to do with Greta's "Solutions" which most agree are horrifying, de-industrialising the West (which is massively reducing already it's emissions, US is down 10%) back to living life like a 1700's mud farmer whilst China (the biggest polluter and increasing rapidly since 2011) and India (the second fastest riser since 2011 and 3rd worst polluter), who she never talks about in her "Solution" BTW, kill the world with pollutants without being checked by the now de-industrialised West.

Food

The overwhelming consensus now in peer reviewed research is, meat is generally not as beneficial to a person as someone who does eat it. The key understanding you have here is a pool of data, say, '1000' peer reviewed papers - first we check who funded it - to bare in mind impartiality, we then review each paper - to peer review it - we then seek trends in the data, again bearing in mind who funded the research or if if was done by an independant educational institution that's funding is in no way related to the research.

The general factual results coming in, as a trend say, meat isn't a very good food source, nor is it particularly a good source of protein - in terms of health, remember, the animal only built its own protein from the protein found in its plant based food source.

So to answer your question the pendulum is swinging excessively in the direction of a vegan diet being generally overwhelmingly better for a human.

Why are vegetarians always so pushy?

It's not going to kill me to eat a little meat and I enjoy it. Each to their own.

Because 'we' generally have realised something so obviously profound, it baffles us why people choose to ignore it - but is to important not to share.

I'm sure in the 40/50/60s some people 'nagged' about how bad smoking was for people, but generally people didnt care, believe it or ignored it - despite at the time in the research of the day overwhelming floods of papers were beginning to appear stating a direct link between smoking and cancer - however a great many of papers came out claiming smoking was actually good for you - these were funded by tobacco companies.

The same thing is happening again today, this time with the meat industry - the 'propaganda' is designed to keep people buying and eating meat - over simplifying it, as the tobacco industry did decades ago, a simple example being 'protein is good for you' same as back then they would have said 'tobacco is a natural plant' - it paints a picture that is disingenuous.

The irony of your comment that it won't kill you, is, in-fact, meat consumption over a life time is exactly one of the main reasons for heart conditions and cancer in the west today, 3 personal close family members in my family are currently all dealing with recent heart attacks or cancer treatment, they have all had meat nearly every meal and dairy, all in their mid 60's, all extremely fit and slim, never smoked either. Given modern living and medical care, mid 60's is far to young to suffer this.........the only common link is a high meat high animal product diet, in addition one of the close family friends has suffered random health issues in the past 5 years, finally, the one guy in the friend group who is the same age, grew up in the same area, lived in the same area all his life - same body size, mass, not fat etc is as fit as a fiddle - he's had decades of relentless friendly mocking from everyone for being a veggi his whole life (not even vegan) - yet he's now the last man standing - sure its too small a sample size and circumstantial - but it just so happens to be the same result as countless studies to date.

The main take away here is - the studies are done, and ongoing we dont have to wait to see 'how it goes' the evidence is overwhelming, but its not in mainstream media, it hurts the rich friends of newspapers to remove an entire food industry.

Remember how smoking is obviously viewed as a health risk today? Its taken nearly 8 decades to reach this point, in another 80 years people will view excessive/any meat consumption in the same way, in that time meat consumption will still happen, in the same way some people still smoke today - as with anything 'radical' accepting the truth is a slow process.

 

[Combat squirrel]

Any chance you've watched the video a second time and found an answer to the question I posed?

What about the 5% (near 400 million of us on this planet right now), that going Vegan ultimately spells disaster or a final Game Over to? The issue with G6PD isn't as jumpy as your Vegan vs Meat debate (which constantly swings from side to side), it's an established fact and not disputed ANYWHERE across the globe, to those who inherited G6PD, our Red Blood cells die when they come in contact with Soya (the primary base of going Vegan). There's no if's or but's involved there, it's the base of what is happening inside us when we run into something we shouldn't. We don't control it, we didn't ask for it either. We just have it, it's who we are. Just like our skin colour.

The outright effects on us G6PD'ers vary, as we inherit different severity levels, so some only suffer minor aenemia and so darker urines and stools. Some others (like myself) become weak and lathargic as well. Some suffer blackouts and faint, having a hard time breathing. Some others (like my mother) suffer cramps and spams from the blood being unable to carry oxygen in the system (due to heavy Red Blood cell loss). And some (like my grandfather) just flat out dies after short continued exposure.

So I would like to ask, has that video provided any answers for the people like me, who wouldn't mind going Vegan, but can't actually? So we know it has factored in this 5% before it makes this claim? Or should we be ignored because we're a "minority"?

An interesting point, I am just educating myself on G6PD right now to learn more - thanks for the heads up.

However straight away, no, 'Soya (the primary base of going Vegan)' - is completely false - DO a lot of off the shelf vegan products contain soya? - yes, do you NEED to eat soya to be vegan? NO, not at all - oat milk, almond milk are some alternatives, coconut milk - 90% of what I eat isn't soy based.

Anyways going to make a stirfry - I will however read up more on G6PD when im done - but its super easy to be vegan without any soy at all.

 

[Combat squirrel]

G6PD

I found this from British Institute of Clinical Pharmacology

Source

Br J Clin Pharmacol. 2017 Jan; 83(1): 211–212.
Published online 2016 Sep 20. doi: 10.1111/bcp.13091
PMCID: PMC5338146
PMID: 27650490
What G6PD‐deficient individuals should really avoid
Shaun Wen Huey Lee,corresponding author 1 Nathorn Chaiyakunapruk, 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 and Nai Ming Lai 5

Overall, we found that there was scant literature describing foods or chemicals which triggered haemolysis in G6PD‐deficient individuals. Only 38 articles, describing 14 different types of food or chemical, were found (a full list of the articles retrieved can be obtained by contacting S.W.H.L.; Table 1). We noted that only the consumption of fava beans or food cross‐contaminated with fava beans 4, as well as the use of naphthalene and aniline dyes, were consistently associated with haemolysis. However, there was only one isolated case report describing haemolysis when G6PD‐deficient individuals consumed: fenugreek, unripe peach or smoked synthetic cannabinoid, or consumed beans within the same genus as fava beans – namely, Vicia sativa (common vetch) and Vicia faba (broad bean). Reports of haemolysis have also been noted when G6PD‐deficient individuals came into contact with flower pollen, the plant Hoya carnosa, silver sulfadiazine, aluminium phosphide and menthol products (including menthol powder and medicated plaster). Considering the scarcity of such reports, there is insufficient evidence to reach a clear conclusion regarding the risks of the substances mentioned in causing haemolysis in G6PD‐deficient individuals in general. However, there have been several reports of haemolysis in G6PD‐deficient individuals, linking the use of food coloured with the reddish‐orange agent 1‐phenylazo‐2‐naphthol‐6‐sulphonic acid, which is found in food colouring agent, Orange‐RN 5, 6. This food additive has subsequently been banned in many countries, which may account for the paucity of report on it in recent years. Nevertheless, we urge caution while consuming any food which contains a high concentration of this agent in view of the potential for haemolysis and toxicity 7.

Foods/chemicals that should be avoided by G6PD‐deficient individuals:

Fava beans Naphthalene
Aniline dyes

Of specific interest to the above abstract:

"We noted that only the consumption of fava beans or food cross‐contaminated with fava beans 4, as well as the use of naphthalene and aniline dyes, were consistently associated with haemolysis"

It appears or suggests soy is less of a primary issue of G6PD than you may think, perhaps a cross contamination is taking place, I'm not sure of the relation of fava beans to soya beans, i guess they are of a similar genetic makeup though ?, I'll look some more for you though as you suffer from the problem - sorry to hear you do.

EDIT UPDATE:

From verywell health:

G6PD deficiency is also called favism; particularly the most severe forms of G6PD deficiency. This is because the ingestion of fava beans (also known as broad beans) can trigger hemolytic attacks in patients with G6PD deficiency. Some suggest that all legumes (such as peas, lentils, or peanuts) be avoided, but whether or not this is actually needed is unknown.

It appears then that its a generally known issue with legumes, but differs in sufferers ? It's still easy however to be vegan and avoid legumes - harder to do sure, but not impossible.

 

[Combat squirrel]

Maybe its like Scientology: in veganism you have to recruit more people to get to vegan heaven?

Already answered his question previously....but thanks for your entirely useful comment! Lol

 

[Combat squirrel]

Netflix documentaries and movies like this aren't unbiased sources of information, they're written and marketed to polarise and to sell. In this case, all the athletes of note featured only switched to vegan after they had got to where they are and....

-Arnold Schwarzenegger - due to release plant based protein powder following the recent surge in popularity of plant based diets, built his entire physique (and career) by consuming lot of high protein animal based foods (and steroids).

-Patrik Baboumian aka "the ox" is a German strongman who doesn't come close to any leading strongman competitors, he's never competed at Europe or World's Strongest Man. He also built most of his strength as a vegetarian and only switched to veganism in 2011, but tellingly hasn't done anything of note strength wise since 2012. His typical day's eating includes lots of plant based protein powders and supplements to fill gaps his vegan diet can't fill.

Novak Djokovic - did a single year as a vegan in 2016 but abandoned it due to poor performance and injury throughout the 2017 season. Tellingly he states his diet is now "plant based" rather than vegan.

-Kendrick Farris - dropped off the grid, after switching to veganism, moving up a weight class and lifting less

-Free runner, Tim Shieff - removed from the production of the movie. He recently featured on This Morning describing how it made him sick and "wrecked his health" including stopping him being able to orgasm He does have a history of whacky fad diets including drinking his own p*ss, but still.

-Griff Whalen: went vegan 2014 out of the league 2016

-Bryant Jennings: went vegan end of 2013 (17-0 before vegan, 7-4 after vegan)

-Mischa Janiec: went vegan fall of 2015 - no wins 2 years after

-Morgan Mitchell went vegan 2014... in 2017 finished 26th place world championships. Didn't even place in latest Oz championships.

-James Brett Wilks went vegan 2011, retired from MMA in 2012

Then you have Lewis Hamilton who is still 'at the top' but then how much diet affects the athletic ability to drive a really fast car well?

It seems your misinformed sir.

Arnie - well documented, yes he used to, from a time when it was thought to be 'manly' to eat meat, due to advertising - he's still kicking butt now off plants

Patrik Baboumian -

2013 World record yoke-walk, 550,2 kg over 10 m in Toronto
2015 World record yoke-walk, 560 kg in 28 seconds

Obviously since 2011 he's carrying more than anyone on earth.

Novak Djokovic - again your cherry picking his comments, yeah he is plant based, but its well published he dislikes the word vegan and the mindset that goes along with the word that gives a knee jerk reaction - plant based IS vegan.

Tim Shieff - didnt work for him, perhaps he has a g6pd issue, Im researching that more

-Griff Whalen: went vegan 2014 out of the league 2016
-Bryant Jennings: went vegan end of 2013 (17-0 before vegan, 7-4 after vegan)
-Mischa Janiec: went vegan fall of 2015 - no wins 2 years after
-Morgan Mitchell went vegan 2014... in 2017 finished 26th place world championships. Didn't even place in latest Oz championships.
-James Brett Wilks went vegan 2011, retired from MMA in 2012

Performance could be down to many things, many athletes have worse or better performance over time, you just cherry picked a few who went down hill, in the doc itself, McCreggor got his ass handed to him by a vegan because he had a meat based diet.

And the final nail in the coffin of intent for your argument & your attitude of intent is "but then how much diet affects the athletic ability to drive a really fast car well?" - wow, just wow, you do know F1 drivers are up there as the fittest of all athletes? They have to have extreme human endurance, strength and stamina to drive the cars at the very peak of performance - being subject to 2 - 4.5 times the force of gravity in various dimensions for 2 hours on race day, more on test, quals etc is exhausting, its been known for years the fittest F1 drivers, perform at their best, its not only physical strength either - in that sport reaction times are everything because your going 200mph - a fitter human will have faster responses.

We could both sit here cherry picking stuff, and you don't have enough information for the last 5 sportsman getting worse in their game.

I'm sure you won't address why nearly all top athletes are dropping meat now, be it to veggi or vegan diets, the top performers are all going plant, there must be some reason, and that reason is science and money - science says they will get better performance (all other stats being equal - of course not just diet affects them, training, age, etc) and money that funds them wants them to win so makes them do it.

 

[Combat squirrel]

Some rare information for an OCUK forum

You sir, I'll get back to, reading up & learning more about this condition - if anything it will add to my own knowledge.

 

[Combat squirrel]

Any chance you've watched the video a second time and found an answer to the question I posed?

What about the 5% (near 400 million of us on this planet right now), that going Vegan ultimately spells disaster or a final Game Over to? The issue with G6PD isn't as jumpy as your Vegan vs Meat debate (which constantly swings from side to side), it's an established fact and not disputed ANYWHERE across the globe, to those who inherited G6PD, our Red Blood cells die when they come in contact with Soya (the primary base of going Vegan). There's no if's or but's involved there, it's the base of what is happening inside us when we run into something we shouldn't. We don't control it, we didn't ask for it either. We just have it, it's who we are. Just like our skin colour.

The outright effects on us G6PD'ers vary, as we inherit different severity levels, so some only suffer minor aenemia and so darker urines and stools. Some others (like myself) become weak and lathargic as well. Some suffer blackouts and faint, having a hard time breathing. Some others (like my mother) suffer cramps and spams from the blood being unable to carry oxygen in the system (due to heavy Red Blood cell loss). And some (like my grandfather) just flat out dies after short continued exposure.

So I would like to ask, has that video provided any answers for the people like me, who wouldn't mind going Vegan, but can't actually? So we know it has factored in this 5% before it makes this claim? Or should we be ignored because we're a "minority"?

So I've looked into this more, I'm still learning about G6PD, however the following non bean based plants would give you more than enough protein:

Watercress
Alfalfa
Spinach
Cabbage
Asparagus
Broccoli
Cauliflower
Brussels sprouts
rice

Also, when did you ever hear about anyone suffering from a protein deficiency ? I asked my cousin who's a doctor - says he's never treated anyone for such a thing, ever.

I hear an awful lot about heart disease and cancer though

 

[Combat squirrel]

Exactly what is he a doctor of, Mister Venkman?

Ask Doctor Cousins about deficiency in RbAp48. This is a protein deficiency reckoned to significantly contribute to Alzheimers.
Protein deficiency also leads to anemia and low blood sugar, edema, fatty liver, loss of muscle mass, stunted growth, plus an increase in severity of infections, likelihood of bbone fractures, and various skin, hair and nail problems.
In severe cases of protein S deficiency, infants develop a life-threatening blood clotting disorder called purpura fulminans.

Ask Dr Cousin which website he got his diploma off... because Google clearly knows more than he does!!

wow, just wow, i bow down to your google skills that clearly match his medical degree in medicene! He's a proper doctor - and you talking about a still largely unknown condition that develops late in life vs no one walks into a hospital (without a specific genetic medical condition) suffering from a lack of protein.

Your post makes you sound like a daily mail reader, get a grip.

I've never in my life seen an unotherwise 'healthy' normal person ever suffer from a lack of it - sure you can google some obscure rare genetic condition but that only proves you entirely missed what i was saying.

 

[Combat squirrel]

The game changers is now on netflix so won't cost extra to view if you already have a subscription