Poll: The Great OcUK DC Census [Poll]

[Trojan]

Thats certainly an intersting point, and puts a different perspective on things.
But i don't think you can compare a process which takes an hour and involves sticking a needle in your arm to setting up a piece of software that takes a couple of minutes and doesn't involve any pain or inconvinience.

Giving blood doesn't involve any pain. As for inconvenience, it's maybe an hour every few months. I'd also argue strongly that there are far greater benefits to giving blood. Therefore if you compare the amount of effort required for each, and the benefits each has I'd say that you need more effort for less benefits with folding.

Imagine if you did a poll called 'why aren't you giving blood?'. With relevant options. I would say someone would be more justified to vote 'i can't be bothered' on that poll than this one, because it is considerably more effort and involves pain. Is that not a fact?

No, as I've already said giving blood doesn't hurt. Also, given that if you're involved in an accident and needed blood, you'd be extremely bothered about it. I can't think of one situation where folding is likely to have a tangible benefit to myself or others however.

However, i would vote either for the 'i have a fear of needles' option or the 'i am afraid of the pain' option. Those are logical and understandable reasons in the same way that the 'my pc runs too hot/uses too much power' option in this poll is a logical and understandable reason and while i would urge those who voted that option to do something about i if they can, i would not attack them or criticise them in any way if they could not.

As I've already said, it doesn't involve pain so that just wouldn't be valid option. Anyway, where is the option "It won't make any difference as my CPU is never at idle"? The only time my PC is on is when I gaming. When I've done, I turn it off. Forum browsing and what not I leave for work, and I aren't allowed to install anything on the works PC.

Would you not also find it disheartening if the majority of people voted 'i can't be bothered' in your poll, did not read the post that took you ages to write and basically couldn't care less.

Prehaps, but I wouldn't attempt to get round this by pretty much insulting people.

 

[Pumpkinstew]

As you know I BOINC because it allows me to particapate in multiple projects with different objectives.
(Including protein folding. I have 10k in Rosetta@Home, a protein folding project that runs under BOINC.)

 

[Joe42]

Giving blood doesn't involve any pain. As for inconvenience, it's maybe an hour every few months. I'd also argue strongly that there are far greater benefits to giving blood. Therefore if you compare the amount of effort required for each, and the benefits each has I'd say that you need more effort for less benefits with folding.

So trying to find a cure for cancer isn't really beneficial in your opinion?

No, as I've already said giving blood doesn't hurt. Also, given that if you're involved in an accident and needed blood, you'd be extremely bothered about it. I can't think of one situation where folding is likely to have a tangible benefit to myself or others however.

Your not planning on getting cancer then.

Prehaps, but I wouldn't attempt to get round this by pretty much insulting people.

I haven't.

And to answer your question no one off our family or anyone I know has died of cancer.
although my grandad just died last night of old age.

Lucky you. Mine is currently suffering from cancer and is likely to die in an unpleasant and undignified way as a result. At least if i fold it might help find a cure so that one day no-one has to go through that.

 

[Trojan]

So trying to find a cure for cancer isn't really beneficial in your opinion?

I didn't say that.

Your not planning on getting cancer then.

Hopefully not, no.

Seriously though, I simply can not see that my processor being utilised occasionally is going to help cancer research.

I haven't.

So what is the following then, if not a blatent insult?

There are a lot of lazy stubbon people who could be helping to find a cure for cancer and helping the team get better who aren't for stupid reasons.

 

[Kazatan]

with that last post and some of your other posts ive lost respect for you joe. sorry.

maybe you will answer back with... "It doesnt matter whether you respect me just fold" or something simelar, but when its you that is trying to convince people to fold, its not so good to antagonise them.

 

[Fusion]

I think i'm justified in criticising you for not caring about finding a cure for cancer.

You seem to believe that understanding the mechanism by which a few select protein structures fold into shape will cure Alzheimer's, Cancer and third world poverty. The program's results might offer a keyhole insight into a few select processes, but if you think running a free application on your spare CPU cycles will offer massively greater comprehension of disease, I think you're mistaken.

How many of you folders have a solid understanding of the microbiology behind the project? I'm willing to bet that many don't even have a working knowledge of proteins, and have signed up purely as it's the latest buzz project, now that SETI has had its run. It's a willy waving exercise, who can crunch more than anyone else.

Admittedly, I ran SETI for a while, but the science behind it was incredibly naive. Nevertheless, it caught on, as it provoked big questions about extra-terrestrial life, and was thought provoking. Millions of CPU hours were wasted; nothing positive has been found. If the individuals behind these projects wanted to comission a supercomputer, it would cost a hell of a lot of money. Even renting out time on an existing system is expensive. Distributed computing is cheap, and it's easy to get people hooked onto a project. There's only the cost of a server to allocate and transmit workunits, which is peanuts on the grand scale of things.

You should have a greater respect for people's decision not to undertake distributed computing projects. It wouldn't go amiss to understand what it is your software is doing, and what it bodes, if it bodes anything, for science as a whole.

 

[Joe42]

 

[Dave85]

I didnt rise to him saying I dont care about a cure for cancer.

But After thought I realy dont think you have the right to be criticising me for my decision.

I care but I do it in my own way and thats by giving money to cancer research not by doing some folding.

So please dont criticise me again. or my choice not to give blood or bone marrow as its my choice not yours.

 

[Sequoia]

with that last post and some of your other posts ive lost respect for you joe. sorry.

Ditto. Along with pretty much guaranteeing that I can't be tempted into DC.

Joe42 is obviously facing a personally unpleasant time, and the loss of a loved one. For that, Joe, you have my greatest sympathy. But don't make the mistake of thinking that not being interested in DC projects means you either don't care, or aren't doing anything to help in the fight against cancer. I lost both parents and my sister-in-law to cancer, so I certainly don't need lectures about what losing a loved one to it involves, or to be patronised about how not doing DC means we don't care.

Personally, I don't believe DC does much, if any, good in the fight. I do, however, believe that other things I do have as good a chance of helping in the fight as anything I am capable of doing. And, like Trojan, I find some of the remarks about non-DCers insulting .... and patronising.

 

[shadowscotland]

This thread is getting way to personal.

Take a step back people - Folding is helpfull (in a small way) and fun (if your into that kind of compertition), I would recomend you do it for either or both of those reason.

If on the other hand, neither intrest you, don't fold, and stop posting on this thread (why would you, by your own admission your not intrested)

To the over zellious folders (I freely admit I'm a folding fanboy but still) just chill, yes it's a good cause, yes it's 'fun', yes it's worth a pimp/advertise, yes a don't like aphathy in all its forms - but it's not worth an argument or a slaging match.

In summery to all previous posts (yes i've read every one)
I personally would recommed folding (and giveing blood for that matter)
I'd even spend some time clarifing what Folding@home is and any misconseptions. That's what this thead should be about with three types of posters.

1) folding fanboys/girls poster - explaining the what/where/how etc.
2) intrested posters - wanting information
3) un-intrested posters - filling in poll, leaving a comment or two and getting on with their lives.

Ok its an utopian view, but what's wrong with that - we've all got far more important thinks to do with our time than argue over 'to fold or not to fold'

 

[Sequoia]

......

If on the other hand, neither intrest you, don't fold, and stop posting on this thread (why would you, by your own admission your not intrested)

Because of the repeated insinuations that those not into DC are either lazy, selfish or uncaring, or all three. Such is not only untrue, but offensive.

If people want to fold, great. Do so.

If they want to encourage and educate other into doing so, go right ahead. It'll provoke no comment from me.

But as soon as it starts getting into assertions that there's no valid reason for not doing it, that's when I start to post. And it is, after all, a forum. That is why I post, despite being disinterested in DC.

 

[shadowscotland]

I agree with you, but this is getting out of hand and BOTH sides need to step down and respect each other.

 

[Sequoia]

I agree with you, but this is getting out of hand and BOTH sides need to step down and respect each other.

Actually, I don't agree. So far at least, the discussion seems to me to be productive.

Joe42 has an opinion about those that don't do DC. I disagree with him, and am trying to explain, and maybe convince him, why the tone he's taken is not only wrong, but quite possibly counter-productive.

When you're trying to recruit people to something, it's generally not a good idea to be dismissive of those that don't agree with you, or aren't interested. It's also rather high-handed to assume that those that don't follow your enthusiasm either don't have good reason for feeling that way, or are under some obligation to provide that reason, or are .... what was it? Lazy?

Joe42 doesn't think his remarks were insulting. I think they were. I greatly sympathise with why Joe is passionate about this. Really I do. But he needs to understand that other people may have suffered/be suffering similarly, and yet not feel as he does about DC. He has his methods for coping. Others have theirs, that don't necessarily involve DC. Both are entitled to their view, whether it involves DC or not.

Surely we can discuss that without rancour? And, it seems to me, we have been. I see no need to stop posting.

 

[Whitestar]

You seem to believe that understanding the mechanism by which a few select protein structures fold into shape will cure Alzheimer's, Cancer and third world poverty. The program's results might offer a keyhole insight into a few select processes, but if you think running a free application on your spare CPU cycles will offer massively greater comprehension of disease, I think you're mistaken.

How many of you folders have a solid understanding of the microbiology behind the project? I'm willing to bet that many don't even have a working knowledge of proteins, and have signed up purely as it's the latest buzz project, now that SETI has had its run. It's a willy waving exercise, who can crunch more than anyone else.

Oh and i suppose you do. I bet the people at stanford know a hell of a lot more about it than you do about proteins and they seem to think that running a free application will offer greater comprehension of disease. As for the results have ALREADY come from folding, just look here (and you will have to follow the link to the papers page to read about them all).

And before you say it, yes, I do know people who have died from cancer, my aunt and a very close friend of mine, so I started folding for the science, not this willy waving that you go on about.

You really should find out more about something before deciding that its a waste of time.

Someone else said about the 'Holier than thou' attitude that us folders had. Well i think that the 'Holier than thou' attitude of some non folders needs to be looked at.

 

[shadowscotland]

I commend your tone and content and see nothing 'wrong' in positive discussion on this or any other topic.

Surely we can discuss that without rancour? And, it seems to me, we have been. I see no need to stop posting.

Maybe I stepped in to soon, but from reading the last 10 or so posts the 'discussion' was rapidly becoming rancour, but then I'm new to this forum and heated debate could be more commonplace, without generating ill will.

If so I step back graciously. (or in this case continue the debate)

Personal I can't see any harm or significant effort in all forum members installing folding@home or some other DC application on their PC's. If someone choices not too, with good reason fine, if they choose not to without good reason, I'm disappointed but that's their choice.

I'd rather live in a world were their's choice, than a one option society (Even if that always the ‘better’ choice)

 

[Sequoia]

...

Someone else said about the 'Holier than thou' attitude that us folders had. Well i think that the 'Holier than thou' attitude of some non folders needs to be looked at.

I said holier-than-thou .... but it wasn't about folders per se, but about those that think non-folders either don't care about cancer (etc) or just can't be bothered. Maybe that applies to some, but it's just wrong to think that those that don't fold are always either apathetic or uncaring. That is what was holier-than-thou - the assumption that you care more because you fold (or whatever). There are other ways to care, or to help.

 

[A.N.Other]

You seem to believe that understanding the mechanism by which a few select protein structures fold into shape will cure Alzheimer's, Cancer and third world poverty.

I'm not particularly bothered about this argument, but I just though I'd point out actually just how wrong you are. Take the example of cystic fibrosis - not a very nice illness. I don't know if F@H has any input to this study, but it's an example anyway. This is caused by a mutation in the CFTR gene, which causes an inactive protein to be produced when it is expressed in the cells (when the protein it codes for is formed). Through scientific study, a number of treatments have been found for this disease, they are not permanent but if you were suffering from cystic fibrosis, I'm sure you'd be pretty pleased that they were available.

Anyway, I'm saying no more. If you don't want to fold, then that's fine by me - my sister doesn't want to and I'm not going to force her to! I do think, however, that people should know what they are talking about before they say things such as the above. If you just simply don't want to do it, please don't spam the thread and get it closed for the sake of those that do.

 

[Joe42]

I don't want to make this mess any worse but at the same time i don't want to leave people with a bad taste in their mouth. Apologies to anyone i have offended.

Lets get one thing straight, the words i used were 'stubborn and lazy', hardly the most offensive words in the dictionary, but since they did cause offence i apologise, and i'll say it more tactfully, i remain critical of people who don't fold because they can't be bothered or because they 'don't want to' for no discernable reason. That is not a personal attack on anyone, but it is my view and i do have very good reasons for having that view which i have explained.

Your just going to have to live with it, since you say you've lost respect for me anyway that shouldn't be a problem. Can we leave the sc style rubbish and personal attacks on me out of it now please, whatever your views.

Joe42 is obviously facing a personally unpleasant time

The personal attacks don't make life any easier but thanks for your concern, and apologies for any offence caused.

It seems some people would rather be dragged through the gates of hell backwards than fold, so, click here to be dragged through the gates of hell backwards, or click here to fold.

 

[Sequoia]

I don't want to make this mess any worse but at the same time i don't want to leave people with a bad taste in their mouth. Apologies to anyone i have offended.

Lets get one thing straight, the words i used were 'stubborn and lazy', hardly the most offensive words in the dictionary, ....

Agreed, they aren't. But it wasn't just those words that got to me, but the tone, and that comes from other remarks, such as ....

I think i'm justified in criticising you for not caring about finding a cure for cancer.

There are a lot of lazy stubbon people who could be helping to find a cure for cancer and helping the team get better who aren't for stupid reasons.

Would you not also find it disheartening if the majority of people voted 'i can't be bothered' in your poll, did not read the post that took you ages to write and basically couldn't care less?

My point was that while there may be people that don't fold because they can't be bothered, that is not the same thing as assuming that if you don't fold, it's because you can't be bothered, OR that this makes you uncaring .... a theme you've referred to several times.

As I said, I lost both parents and my sister-in-law (who was 22 at the time) to cancer. Believe me, I care. Deeply.

But there are other ways of expressing that, and doing your bit in the fight against cancer. How would you feel, given your circumstances, if someone said you didn't care because you hadn't donated to cancer charities, or McMillan nurses, or Sue Ryder cancer hospices, and so on?

That's what I found offensive, Joe. It's the inference, repeated several times, that those that don't fold don't care. Note - I'm not saying those remarks I quoted were addressed to or targetted at me, directly. They weren't. But it was that tone that caused me to start posting in this thread.

Can we leave the sc style rubbish and personal attacks on me out of it now please, whatever your views.

If that refers to me, can you point to what you mean by personal attacks. I'm not aware of having made any. I'd like to know what you consider them to be? And if the "SC style rubbish" refers to me, my posting style is my posting style, and nothing to do with SC. I don't go there very often.

 

[VeNT]

I'm in the bone marrow donors list \o/

But I don't fold

Who is doing more for their fellow man?

whats stopping you doing both?

Woah, we'll never steal their souls with an attitude like that Joe... You gotta be more tactful...

FOLDING MAKES GIRLS LIKE YOU MORE!

SiriusB

wheres my sig gone


I'm not into this whole high pressure thing, DC is fun (or atleast used to be) it was about the sci but also about the team spirit, we used to have team races on the old Seti Classic, and things where a lot more livily.
I think some people want to make things more like they where, but I think some people just want to force EVERYONE into it, personaly I don't think thats right. you need to be of a certan mindset to get the whole DC thing and I think a lot of you don't have what it takes to understand.
also you have to like using animals to get every last WU out.
but thats for another thread.