- Joined
- 19 Apr 2004
- Posts
- 4,793
- Location
- London
Well, you won't be reading this, but i have to say, i've never unintentionally got someone so wound up in my entire time on the interwebs. Bizzare.
The "is there a difference" Hi-Fi/Home Cinema Discussion thread
- Thread starter oli collett
- Start date
Well, you won't be reading this, but i have to say, i've never unintentionally got someone so wound up in my entire time on the interwebs. Bizzare.
If you are in London then come and have a listen to mine. Far from perfect room (reflective new build flat POS), but there are no other speakers that have made my ears this happy. Amp choice is key with these, although my old arcam was a nice amp (delta 290) and made my monitor audios sound excellent, it practically died when I turned it up with the ATCs attached. But my lyngdorf on the other hand just goes on and on and on. Stunning speakers which are perfect for me because they just play the CD. If it is a bad recording or even an MP3 you can tell straight away, but good recordings give immense pleasure. No other speaker I have heard has been able to play such a realistic representation of the music.
I went aainst the buying blind theory when i got my speakers and amp, mainly becuase it is impossibleto hear these 2 together, and I trusted some other peoples opinions after chatting with them and just went with it. Not something I would normally do but it worked out perfectly and I won't be upgrading for an awfully long time until I can afford some Sonus faber cremonas
Ahh the joys of just enjoying the music ather than discussing bits.
Forget the tweaking discussion, except the tweaking of the room. The setup of a room is extremely important and has to have time spent on it to get best you can out of it. Then just sit back and enjoy.
Last edited:
Personally I agree with oli_collett. Before reading the article linked in the OP I was open to suggestion either way (I thought that maybe the high-end amps sounded a tad better but probably not many thousands better). However from what I've read (assuming the author wasn't fabricating what he wrote; and why would he?) I do think that there is probably very little difference between amplifiers running within their limits.
Obviously a more powerful amp can drive a set of speakers harder, and for that you would understandably need to pay more.
I am not a fan of this 'well if you can't hear the difference you aren't using your ears properly' argument. What a load of crap. Mr_Sukebe asked 'do you not trust your own ears to discern sonic differences?'. Yes I do, and I detect negligable sonic differences, and with the supporting evidence from various articles I am quite happy with my conclusion.
Why are the 'believers' so dead set against this point of view?
Oh and comparing a washing machine to an amplifier is rather daft - you pay for Miele gear because of the excellent build quality and reliability, not because it washes clothes £500 better.
Obviously a more powerful amp can drive a set of speakers harder, and for that you would understandably need to pay more.
I am not a fan of this 'well if you can't hear the difference you aren't using your ears properly' argument. What a load of crap. Mr_Sukebe asked 'do you not trust your own ears to discern sonic differences?'. Yes I do, and I detect negligable sonic differences, and with the supporting evidence from various articles I am quite happy with my conclusion.
Why are the 'believers' so dead set against this point of view?
Oh and comparing a washing machine to an amplifier is rather daft - you pay for Miele gear because of the excellent build quality and reliability, not because it washes clothes £500 better.
For me amps do make a difference, but obviously when you get up to the truly hi-end stuff the law of diminshing returns will kick in.
I was a bit of a headphone geek and have heard many combos of headphones with different solid and tube amps. Also connected to different sources and DACs, and there were differences. Some were subtle, and some were not so. One thing I regret is not testing the Meridian G08 spinner to the Audigy 2 soudcard, but the person who did says it was better but not by however many thousand. For me, my spinner (marantz cd63) changed a lot with the mods I put in, but they were quite drastic changes, rather than just a few new caps and sockets.
For £250 it makes me happy, and combined with the amp and speaker testing I have done it has led me to the conclusion that speakers are the most important part of a system and always make the most difference, then you come down to the amp, then to the source. It is good to spend a bit of money on a source, but you can spend a lot less on it than you think, and get an excellent sound that even something like my ATC speakers will throw out beautifully, and they are critical beasties.
Right bed time for me, I have one hell of an excalator model to finish this week before xmas, and need to be charged for work
I was a bit of a headphone geek and have heard many combos of headphones with different solid and tube amps. Also connected to different sources and DACs, and there were differences. Some were subtle, and some were not so. One thing I regret is not testing the Meridian G08 spinner to the Audigy 2 soudcard, but the person who did says it was better but not by however many thousand. For me, my spinner (marantz cd63) changed a lot with the mods I put in, but they were quite drastic changes, rather than just a few new caps and sockets.
For £250 it makes me happy, and combined with the amp and speaker testing I have done it has led me to the conclusion that speakers are the most important part of a system and always make the most difference, then you come down to the amp, then to the source. It is good to spend a bit of money on a source, but you can spend a lot less on it than you think, and get an excellent sound that even something like my ATC speakers will throw out beautifully, and they are critical beasties.
Right bed time for me, I have one hell of an excalator model to finish this week before xmas, and need to be charged for work
Last edited:
I'll accept that speakers sound different. The size, shape, movement of the cones coupled with the size, shape and material of the enclosures will obviously have an effect on the sound. Whether a speaker costing £5000 is much better than a speaker costing £500 is another matter.
With regard to the source, I can see how different turntables can sound different for the same reasons I can see it with speakers. With CDPs I am yet to be convinced, especially with regard to the transport. Admittedly one might read a damaged CD more reliably than another, but assuming the CD is perfect then what can be different? The outputs would be the same bitstream unless I am missing something.
With regard to the source, I can see how different turntables can sound different for the same reasons I can see it with speakers. With CDPs I am yet to be convinced, especially with regard to the transport. Admittedly one might read a damaged CD more reliably than another, but assuming the CD is perfect then what can be different? The outputs would be the same bitstream unless I am missing something.
So a piece of hifi doesnt have excellent quality build or reliability ?? Im sure many pieces of hifi doesnt sound £500 better either but in reality how would you quantify that anyway.
obviously, the OP is not saying that anyone who has bought expensive hi fi equipment is necessarily wasting their money, he is just trying to highlight the fact that it would be nice to see some double blind testing as a standard part of hi fi reviews. It might not actually help a lot with similar price/spec kit because identifying a difference in sound is not the same as identifying the 'better' sound and that is obviously where personal preference comes in.
I bought some kit over the summer, Kef iq5se speakers, onkyo 606 amp, and mordaunt short sub, and some cables (generally the cheaper end of 'proper' cables). If i had had the time and resources/ability to go and double blind test lots of different bits of kit, then I suspect I probably could have got some 'better' sound for the money, and I may well have wasted money on cabling. However, it sounds, to me a hell of a lot better than what I had before, but I'm still not going to claim that I can 'prove' that, because I can't.
I think the more money (as a % of your income/wealth perhaps) that you are going to spend on this stuff, the more time and effort you should spend on demoing/testing, and it would be nice if this was done for us, by professional reviewers
(also, part of my kit choice was influenced by looks (hence the Kefs rather than B&Ws) - some people would want the sonically 'best' kit and to hell with how it looks, but for me, I get value from it looking nice and coherent with my room decor.)
I bought some kit over the summer, Kef iq5se speakers, onkyo 606 amp, and mordaunt short sub, and some cables (generally the cheaper end of 'proper' cables). If i had had the time and resources/ability to go and double blind test lots of different bits of kit, then I suspect I probably could have got some 'better' sound for the money, and I may well have wasted money on cabling. However, it sounds, to me a hell of a lot better than what I had before, but I'm still not going to claim that I can 'prove' that, because I can't.
I think the more money (as a % of your income/wealth perhaps) that you are going to spend on this stuff, the more time and effort you should spend on demoing/testing, and it would be nice if this was done for us, by professional reviewers
(also, part of my kit choice was influenced by looks (hence the Kefs rather than B&Ws) - some people would want the sonically 'best' kit and to hell with how it looks, but for me, I get value from it looking nice and coherent with my room decor.)
Don't even understand this - it doesnt matter in the slightest who came up with the test unless you can logically demonstrate why it is fallible.
Caporegime
- Joined
- 20 Oct 2002
- Posts
- 75,954
- Location
- Wish i was in a Ramen Shop Counter
I used to be a huge HiFi snob, in some ways i still am.
I have done the double blind test, i have done demo rooms with different kit with same music, I have test run amps at home from local dealers. They know me so well (back then) , I took it home on trust.
That said, I do not have particularly high end gear, it's what one would call just below midrange, Marantz KI Sig amp and CD, B&W Speakers. It's no Tag Mclaren, Quad or Krell but it is better than the AWIA midi system i have. I also have headphones amps (valve driven) too for my headphones, and made my own kettle lead for my hifi, made my own interconnectors and even dabbled in DACs.
What I have found out is that there are differences in all the kit, even in cables. Sometimes it is hard to distinguish it in a test, for example I find my QED Ic very bright sounding where my Van Den Hul is much smoother. It doesn't jump out at me but long period of listen I can feel it in my ears that the QED just sounds a bit off compared to the VDH. But perhaps the most important aspect to all this is the rules of deminishing returns, the best kit i've heard costs in the region of £50k, is it nice? Yes of course it is. Would I buy it? No, i wouldn't, I would rather spend what I have spent on mine and the other £48k on something else. But that is a personal choice.
Basically, when it gets to something in 4 figures, I find that they are all good, it's just what you prefer in the end of the day, and the ABX test might be right, however it cannot take into account the day to day prolong listening habbit on the user.
I have done the double blind test, i have done demo rooms with different kit with same music, I have test run amps at home from local dealers. They know me so well (back then) , I took it home on trust.
That said, I do not have particularly high end gear, it's what one would call just below midrange, Marantz KI Sig amp and CD, B&W Speakers. It's no Tag Mclaren, Quad or Krell but it is better than the AWIA midi system i have. I also have headphones amps (valve driven) too for my headphones, and made my own kettle lead for my hifi, made my own interconnectors and even dabbled in DACs.
What I have found out is that there are differences in all the kit, even in cables. Sometimes it is hard to distinguish it in a test, for example I find my QED Ic very bright sounding where my Van Den Hul is much smoother. It doesn't jump out at me but long period of listen I can feel it in my ears that the QED just sounds a bit off compared to the VDH. But perhaps the most important aspect to all this is the rules of deminishing returns, the best kit i've heard costs in the region of £50k, is it nice? Yes of course it is. Would I buy it? No, i wouldn't, I would rather spend what I have spent on mine and the other £48k on something else. But that is a personal choice.
Basically, when it gets to something in 4 figures, I find that they are all good, it's just what you prefer in the end of the day, and the ABX test might be right, however it cannot take into account the day to day prolong listening habbit on the user.
Last edited:
Totally agree, I tin the sweet spot for ZOMG JAW DROPPNG SOUND is in the few thousand pound margain. Obviously some people are happy with ibuds, and others only with a Martin Logan electrostats, but everyone is different in their dedication and sadness
Yeh because we are arguing about the thickness of the metal facia on our amps aren't we
.Yeh because we are arguing about the thickness of the metal facia on our amps aren't we
Well yes sort of. My CD player has a 15mm thick piece of solid brushed aluminium for a facia and these things cost money
I take your point, but this thread is about differences in sound, not differences in build quality. I will accept that a lot of the high end stuff is built better than a lot of the cheaper stuffWell yes sort of. My CD player has a 15mm thick piece of solid brushed aluminium for a facia and these things cost money
.In answer to the first post: All amps do not sound the same, some cables do sound better than others and monster cables are overpriced rubbish.
As for the impracticality of ABX testing, just going for a decent demo of a number of different bits of kit with a few CD's of your own is good enough. Many decent shops will loan you kit for a home demo so you can get an even better idea of what it will sound like in your home instead of a well setup listening room.
A recent Rega/Naim/Arcam demo of CD players and amps with a wide range of different music proved beyond a doubt to me the huge differences in different sources and amplification. Anyone who couldn't hear the difference needs to turn their hearing aid up.
I'm a beliver in rubbish in rubbish out and usually spend the least money on speakers than any other part of my kit. I have some 8 year old B&W 601s2 speakers that I have just replaced. I was originally using them with a Denon AV amp but the made the switch to a decent stereo amp. I was amazed at the improvement I got and was suprised by just how much better my speakers sounded and how much more capable they were.
As for the great cables debate, I have not done enough testing with cables as I'm just using the DIN cables that were supplied, I'm going to try and borrow a Hi-Line from my dealer to see if it makes any noticeable difference (ie does it sound 545 squid better?!) I expect it will sound better but I can't justify spending that much cash on one cable. I have had the chance to borrow some Russ Andrews mains cables from a mate and there were some subtle but noticeable differences. As a result I'm using the Classic Powercords with most of my Kit. I was also impressed and even suprised with the improvement switching to NAC A5 cable from some Linn K20 made, though that was to be expected as NAIM stuff works best with there own brand of cable.
At the end of the day its all down to personal preferences. If you can afford to spend it and can hear a difference and are happy with what you get then thats all that matters. Magazine reviews are not really that helpful as its just the reviewers opinion, I would never buy something without a propper demo just because it had a good review nor would I remove a product from my shortlist on the basis of a bad review. I would demo it and make up my own mind.
Dave
As for the impracticality of ABX testing, just going for a decent demo of a number of different bits of kit with a few CD's of your own is good enough. Many decent shops will loan you kit for a home demo so you can get an even better idea of what it will sound like in your home instead of a well setup listening room.
A recent Rega/Naim/Arcam demo of CD players and amps with a wide range of different music proved beyond a doubt to me the huge differences in different sources and amplification. Anyone who couldn't hear the difference needs to turn their hearing aid up.
I'm a beliver in rubbish in rubbish out and usually spend the least money on speakers than any other part of my kit. I have some 8 year old B&W 601s2 speakers that I have just replaced. I was originally using them with a Denon AV amp but the made the switch to a decent stereo amp. I was amazed at the improvement I got and was suprised by just how much better my speakers sounded and how much more capable they were.
As for the great cables debate, I have not done enough testing with cables as I'm just using the DIN cables that were supplied, I'm going to try and borrow a Hi-Line from my dealer to see if it makes any noticeable difference (ie does it sound 545 squid better?!) I expect it will sound better but I can't justify spending that much cash on one cable. I have had the chance to borrow some Russ Andrews mains cables from a mate and there were some subtle but noticeable differences. As a result I'm using the Classic Powercords with most of my Kit. I was also impressed and even suprised with the improvement switching to NAC A5 cable from some Linn K20 made, though that was to be expected as NAIM stuff works best with there own brand of cable.
At the end of the day its all down to personal preferences. If you can afford to spend it and can hear a difference and are happy with what you get then thats all that matters. Magazine reviews are not really that helpful as its just the reviewers opinion, I would never buy something without a propper demo just because it had a good review nor would I remove a product from my shortlist on the basis of a bad review. I would demo it and make up my own mind.
Dave