The joy of being a landlord

[radderfire]

This is false, you're just posting more crypto shill/conspiracy drivel based on some half-baked notions of how money supply works.

My views are quite similar to this Robert F. Kennedy interview. He is talking about America, but the UK is going the same way, and it is because the state has been corrupted by the privately held banking sector, which is facilitated by the banking sector being in control of currency issuance. Regarding America, Kennedy says:

"The corrupt merger of state and corporate power is turning the country into a corporate cleptocracy. Cushy socialism for the rich, and brutal merciless capitalism for the poor."

 

[Thekwango]

I've found the cheaper the rent the poorer the tenants (is that a pun?). If you want someone to make it a home find the biggest businesses in the area and ask to advertise on their workplace notice boards. Professionals only, couples preferred. Then you're good.

It’s a small town, I’ll know all there is to know about any potential applicants before they ever set foot in the house
As to the cheaper the rent thing, I kind of agree with that ordinarily. But my own personal experiences of being a renter have influenced my thinking on this one.
For example, to my mind, keeping the rent as sensible as possible and being very select with who I rent to, I hope, means the tenants aren’t on their arse financially after paying rent which means their all round life is a bit better. If life is better, they’ll be happy (happier?). Happy folk don’t crap on the kitchen floor or flood the bathroom. At least in my opinion. Tenants having a bit of leeway with their own finances might just encourage them to spend a few quid on the house to make it feel like their home (change the decor up, put up their own ornaments etc) that type of person, again imo, isn’t going to be wrecking the house and ducking out 6 months down the line.

Don’t get me wrong, I know there’s no guarantee no matter what I do that I’ll get a good tenant but what I do know is, if I get a good tenant they’ll not get a better landlord. But then I’m not in it to maximise my profits. If I can pay a few quid extra off my own mortgage a month while keeping a healthy repair/upgrade fund for the rental house itself and tenants, I’ll be happy.

 

[dowie]

My views are quite similar to this Robert F. Kennedy interview. He is talking about America, but the UK is going the same way[..]

Nah, you're just easily confused/don't know what you're talking about for example:

No I don't think so, because one of the fundamental reasons for massively inflated property prices is that the private banking sector is able to issue currency (their own bank notes, essentially a paper IOU) at will, in a quantity that is not checked by the population. Therefore, it's a critical issue in a discussion related to property prices.

The only bank that can do that in England is the Bank of England, six other banks in Scotland and NI can also do that but each note issued has to be backed by assets of that value (BoE notes, coins or funds held at the BoE:

Scottish and Northern Ireland banknotes

Only the Bank of England issues banknotes in England and Wales, but six banks in Scotland and Northern Ireland can also issue banknotes. Coins are manufactured and issued by the Royal Mint.

www.bankofengland.co.uk

Feel free to back up your claim but I suspect you're just getting yourself confused re: how the activities of commercial and retail banks impact money supply. I think you being very into crypto and following all the conspiracy stuff that goes along with that has perhaps warped things a bit for you here too.

 

[mattx4]

But back when it was 260 I assume that flat would have been worth.. 90? 100?


So when the mortgage here was 825 the rent there was 500.
So a house worth 2.5x. But the rent to. Mortgage ratio is is about 1.6x (ish)

Sure you have the deposit there. But still. Around here renting much more expensive than mortgage

I'm comparing the current place you have, which is a 340k house. To buy your house as FTB with a 10% deposit would cost 1.7k a month and I'm taking a rough guess that if you were to rent it out it would be around 1.2k

To use my own figures I current rent a house worth around 1.3m, if I was to buy it the monthly payments would be around 9k inc tax, insurance etc. Right now I rent it for a bit over 6k

The house I own in the UK would cost around 3.5-4k with a 10% deposit to mortgage right now and I rent it for 2100 so in both cases renting is the cheaper option at least in the short term and I've only included monthly ongoing costs not one offs needed to buy or ongoing maintenance costs.

Clearly buying will probably work out cheaper long-term if you have enough capital to put down but people shouldn't turn their nose up at renting as much as they do

 

[radderfire]

The only bank that can do that in England is the Bank of England, six other banks in Scotland and NI can also do that but each note issued has to be backed by assets of that value (BoE notes, coins or funds held at the BoE:

Scottish and Northern Ireland banknotes

Only the Bank of England issues banknotes in England and Wales, but six banks in Scotland and Northern Ireland can also issue banknotes. Coins are manufactured and issued by the Royal Mint.

www.bankofengland.co.uk

When I refer to the banks I mean the Bank of England and the big banks that part own it. I'm not talking about paper bank note issuance here, I'm talking about how money can be introduced by them into the system, which is not subject to audit and done by accounting tricks and subterfuge, such as the bank bailout that happened in the repo market in 2019. There is certainly no real auditing of the system and as it has long been off the gold standard there is no check on currency issuance today, hence by opaque means the banks can keep the system going and gradually take over everything, the only problem being that house prices and inflation rocket and normal people can't afford to live. The system is by its nature opaque and no auditing is allowed, which would not be the case if the underlying system was Bitcoin where transactions can be viewed on the blockchain and currency issuance is by a pre-determined schedule via computer code.

You can call me a conspiracy theorist all you want and it's what I expect from you, but you can't argue about the consequences which are an unrealistically priced housing market and rapidly rising inflation, as these are plain to see.

 

[Quartz]

Around here renting much more expensive than mortgage

Don't forget that the mortgage isn't the only cost: consider insurance, agent's fees, maintenance, etc. And that if it's a private landlord the mortgage is paid out of net income, not gross income.

 

[dowie]

When I refer to the banks I mean the Bank of England and the big banks that part own it. I'm not talking about paper bank note issuance here[more waffle]

You were talking about paper bank notes though, you specifically mentioned "bank notes" and "paper":

the private banking sector is able to issue currency (their own bank notes, essentially a paper IOU) at will

Now we've got another clanger in your latest post, big banks owning the BoE. Can you name one of them? How much of the BoE do they own?

You can call me a conspiracy theorist all you want and it's what I expect from you

You are a conspiracy theorist, so far you've come out with some poor understanding of money supply, some dodgy claim re: issuing bank notes which you've then walked back, some everything would magically be fixed with bitcoin claim and you've managed to throw in something about the gold standard too. It's all pretty much standard internet conspiracy lunatic stuff.

Bonus points if, when you answer the question about these banks owning the BoE you start ranting about the Rothschilds.

 

[radderfire]

Now we've got another clanger in your latest post, big banks owning the BoE. Can you name one of them? How much of the BoE do they own?

You are a conspiracy theorist, so far you've come out with some poor understanding of money supply, some dodgy claim re: issuing bank notes which you've then walked back, some everything would magically be fixed with bitcoin claim and you've managed to throw in something about the gold standard too. It's all pretty much standard internet conspiracy lunatic stuff.

The information on who owns the Bank of England is not publicly available but I would guess that banks such as Barclays and HSBC own some of it, maybe around 5% each. It's impossible to know for sure, because it's kept opaque.

As I said previously you can call me a conspiracy theorist all you want, which is just an assertion by you and has no real merit as an argument, but what you can't do is refute the end results of this system, which as I repeat is unrealistic house prices and normal people getting priced out of the housing market and having problems with living expenses.

Anyway, we have had this discussion before and whilst I would be happy to continue it I don't want to derail this thread too much into a discussion about the banking system and how in my view it's the root cause of all the problems in the housing market.

 

[JonRGV250]

I don't want to derail this thread too much

No, of course not, perish the thought

 

[platinum87]

The information on who owns the Bank of England is not publicly available but I would guess that banks such as Barclays and HSBC own some of it, maybe around 5% each. It's impossible to know for sure, because it's kept opaque.

As I said previously you can call me a conspiracy theorist all you want, which is just an assertion by you and has no real merit as an argument, but what you can't do is refute the end results of this system, which as I repeat is unrealistic house prices and normal people getting priced out of the housing market and having problems with living expenses.

Anyway, we have had this discussion before and whilst I would be happy to continue it I don't want to derail this thread too much into a discussion about the banking system and how in my view it's the root cause of all the problems in the housing market.

There is no ownership, its publicly owned via the government.

The banking system is the root cause, the reason for this is low interest rates for prolonged periods has pushed up house prices as borrowing is too cheap, in addition the economy has become very inefficient due to poor capital allocation, also due to interest rates.

 

[dowie]

The information on who owns the Bank of England is not publicly available but I would guess that banks such as Barclays and HSBC own some of it, maybe around 5% each. It's impossible to know for sure, because it's kept opaque.

As I said previously you can call me a conspiracy theorist all you want, which is just an assertion by you and has no real merit as an argument

Back in reality, not crypto conspiracy land we can just look at the BoE website (the same one linked to previously to refute your other clanger):

Governance and funding

We are a public body that must answer to Parliament. We generate income to pay for our work.

www.bankofengland.co.uk

We are a public body that must answer to the people of the UK through Parliament.

We started over 300 years ago as a private bank with shareholders. In 1946, the Government nationalised us because of our central importance to the UK’s economy.

 

[dowie]

The banking system is the root cause, the reason for this is low interest rates for prolonged periods has pushed up house prices as borrowing is too cheap, in addition the economy has become very inefficient due to poor capital allocation, also due to interest rates.

It's worth pointing out, again, that the root cause is the lack of supply. Low interest rates can impact the price, sure but we've gotta be careful not to conflate that with affordability.

As interest rates rise prices can stagnate or fall in various areas... that doesn't mean properties become any more affordable as now buyers can't borrow as much and have higher repayments.

Unless the supply issue is tackled then it doesn't matter whether you have high or low interest rates or we live in some BTC/crypto lala land, there is still a shortage of homes and the same people (more or less) all competing for them so that lack of supply needs to be fixed in order for housing to be more affordable.

 

[radderfire]

Back in reality, not crypto conspiracy land we can just look at the BoE website (the same one linked to previously to refute your other clanger):

Governance and funding

We are a public body that must answer to Parliament. We generate income to pay for our work.

www.bankofengland.co.uk

You can't believe something just because it's written on a website. It's interesting that the bankofengland has a .co.uk extension (commercial) and not a .gov.uk extension (government) isn't it?

The Bank of England wants you to believe that they are a government owned organisation (owned by the people, for the people right? Yeah right.) As I said in that other thread my opinion is that there is the use of legal structures to cover the people who really own the Bank of England, and this ownership information is protected, you can't find it out. They want you to believe it's government and democratic, and most people fall for it. It's only called the Bank of England to make it sound national and government like, but this is not the reality. It's the same with the Fed in the US, which is owned by a consortium of the Big Banks.

If the Bank of England really was government owned, you'd think it could do a better job of making sure its citizens could actually afford somewhere to live and to put food on the table, but many cannot. The main driver of rising house prices and food prices is the creation of currency from thin air and being pumped into the system. It is amazing how long they have been able to keep the charade going but the housing market is stalling and food prices keep rising. If you really think that it is a "people's bank" that is causing this, then you are the one in La La land. The consequences of the abuse of the system are now surfacing, and it will continue to get worse. The system is unfit for purpose but the people will need to wake up to demand something better, there is only so much that people like me can do if people don't take an interest.

Anyway, I'll leave it there because we've already had this discussion and my views have not changed, and as far as I am concerned the economic situation is playing out according to this view.

 

[Mesai]

Yes, but people look at it just in terms of the rent and the mortgage paid, without reference to anything else. Look upthread where one landlord's tenant is looking for them to spend £4k on something which will take years to recoup.

There’s is definitely a big cost and cost risk difference between rental and ownership, but there’s also a difference between owning your own place and being a landlord of an additional property.

From an ownership perspective, at least the money you’re spending is an investment in an appreciating asset, whereas a renter is basically paying an interest only loan.

 

[platinum87]

It's worth pointing out, again, that the root cause is the lack of supply. Low interest rates can impact the price, sure but we've gotta be careful not to conflate that with affordability.

As interest rates rise prices can stagnate or fall in various areas... that doesn't mean properties become any more affordable as now buyers can't borrow as much and have higher repayments.

Unless the supply issue is tackled then it doesn't matter whether you have high or low interest rates or we live in some BTC/crypto lala land, there is still a shortage of homes and the same people (more or less) all competing for them so that lack of supply needs to be fixed in order for housing to be more affordable.

The root cause i am saying in relation to the banking system. There are multiple root causes.

And interest rates directly impact house prices, which directly impact affordability.

As interest rates rise, affordability is decreased, this is why house prices fall, or they should, but things dont work out perfectly, you should expect a roughly 20% fall in house prices from the current rises in interest rates.

I sold my reits as interest rates have begun to increase, i tracked what happened to the value of those holdings, and yes, they are down 20%, as of a couple of weeks ago.

Current UK property prices show evidence of a bubble because i dont really see any evidence of high enough declines, that being said, i am not looking for the data, i expect google news to inform me, as i dont care to know in real time.

You can't believe something just because it's written on a website. It's interesting that the bankofengland has a .co.uk extension (commercial) and not a .gov.uk extension (government) isn't it?

The Bank of England wants you to believe that they are a government owned organisation (owned by the people, for the people right? Yeah right.) As I said in that other thread my opinion is that there is the use of legal structures to cover the people who really own the Bank of England, and this ownership information is protected, you can't find it out. They want you to believe it's government and democratic, and most people fall for it. It's only called the Bank of England to make it sound national and government like, but this is not the reality. It's the same with the Fed in the US, which is owned by a consortium of the Big Banks.

If the Bank of England really was government owned, you'd think it could do a better job of making sure its citizens could actually afford somewhere to live and to put food on the table, but many cannot. The main driver of rising house prices and food prices is the creation of currency from thin air and being pumped into the system. It is amazing how long they have been able to keep the charade going but the housing market is stalling and food prices keep rising. If you really think that it is a "people's bank" that is causing this, then you are the one in La La land. The consequences of the abuse of the system are now surfacing, and it will continue to get worse. The system is unfit for purpose but the people will need to wake up to demand something better, there is only so much that people like me can do if people don't take an interest.

Anyway, I'll leave it there because we've already had this discussion and my views have not changed, and as far as I am concerned the economic situation is playing out according to this view.

The BOE is not a company, its an institution, you need to learn how things work because you are misunderstanding everything completely.

 

[dowie]

You can't believe something just because it's written on a website. It's interesting that the bankofengland has a .co.uk extension (commercial) and not a .gov.uk extension (government) isn't it?

The Bank of England wants you to believe that [...]

Oh, now you've convinced me, you're totally not a conspiracy theorist.

The root cause i am saying in relation to the banking system. There are multiple root causes.

And interest rates directly impact house prices, which directly impact affordability.

As interest rates rise, affordability is decreased, this is why house prices fall[...]

I think this is getting muddled a bit re: prices and affordability, what I'm referring to is that as interest rates rise prices should tend to decrease, but that doesn't mean houses become any more affordable for people as it now costs more to borrow and people may not be able to borrow as much as they could previously.

If there are still a similar number of homes (or rather lack of) then you've still got similar competition for them whether interest rates are high or low... the prices of those homes may vary but the guy who could pay a bit more than 400k previously and outbid the guy who was just able to scrape a bit less than 400k together can still bid 350k now and out-compete the guy who can only just manage a bit less than 350k.

 

[mattx4]

Current UK property prices show evidence of a bubble because i dont really see any evidence of high enough declines, that being said, i am not looking for the data, i expect google news to inform me, as i dont care to know in real time.

Property price declines are just starting to appear in US data I expect the UK will see similar soon as well

Home prices see largest decline since 2012 as banking crisis hits demand: 'There's this fear that everything will crash'

"I was consistently busy in the fall, but things got really quiet in March after the collapse of Silicon Valley Bank," a Redfin agent said.

markets.businessinsider.com

 

[mattx4]

I think this is getting muddled a bit re: prices and affordability, what I'm referring to is that as interest rates rise prices should tend to decrease, but that doesn't mean houses become any more affordable for people as it now costs more to borrow and people may not be able to borrow as much as they could previously.

If anything it pushes out FTBs as banks will look to de risk their mortgage books and increase leading requirements. Makes the property market easy pickings for cash rich buyers

 

[dowie]

If anything it pushes out FTBs as banks will look to de risk their mortgage books and increase leading requirements. Makes the property market easy pickings for cash rich buyers

Yup, there is obvs more to it but I was just trying to highlight the supply issue with a simple example (and I think that's perhaps about enough for GD as the thread posters vary from people with all sorts of irrational beliefs re: landlords through to outright conspiracy theorists).

 

[Pottsey]

Again, how does the tenant have less stress than the landlord?

Just to expand on this due to something I recently found out which is a good example of the stress landlords are going though and might be useful for this thread. It might also help some of the people who incorrectly think being a landlord is a golden goose and easy life.

My understanding is the mortgages are no longer offset against tax so Landlords are no longer able to deduct any mortgage expenses from their rental income causing a large increase to tax rates. Furthermore the government wants energy efficiency levels to improve which I am not against in principle, but they are going about it the wrong way. So landlords are expected to get all properties up to a energy grade C by 2025 which means doing things like spending upwards of £15,000+ on things like a £6000 solar panel water heater to save £32 a year. Which just does not make financial sense. Sure some of the fixes are reasonable like making sure all bulbs are LED but things like fitting a solar water heater to get the energy grading up are just silly.

In this thread we seem to be running off rent at £200 above mortgage which is £2400 "profit" a year unless your one of the delusional posters that think landlords are immoral and should be renting at cost! The problem is the tax bill is now £2600 ish before expenses for a typical property so we are on -£200 from that £2400 profit. Then we have all the services and expenses the landlord has to cover which can push that to -£1000 a year. Then the landlord is now expected to find and fund what is many cases is £15,000+ worth of work on -£1000 yearly loss. This doesn't even cover building up a pot of money for repairs, refurbishment e.c.t

I posted this not aimed at you. Someone in this thread a few days back asked why are landlords are selling up even if they are on a fixed low interest mortgage rates and have a easy time of things. This is why. Its not as easy life and this is why a large amount of landlords are trying to get out before 2025. Its looking like many Landlords will be running at up to a -£16.000 loss in 1 year if they try to meet the new rules.