The most important value is...?

[Ahleckz]

OP's question wasn't to choose 1 value that encompassed everything and was all we needed, he just wanted to brag about being in a commercial or something like that heheh.

Cynic. I just applied to get into the audition stage. Why do I want to be in the advert? To try and further the idea of humanism? To get a free tshirt or to get £500? You decide.

 

[Ahleckz]

Yes, I think that remaining true to yourself is the most important thing. If you do what you believe to be right, even if others don't think it's right, then I think that is an important value. What the worst thing people can do is to do something that they believe to be wrong.

That is why I picked integrity, because if you have integrity, your intentions are always good, and even if someone doesn't agree with the outcome, your actions were not intended to do evil, but to do good.

I disagree. I think that people often do things that they don't believe is right because it benefits a greater number, or goes beyond gaining self satisfaction or adulation from a group. I think if people strived to uphold their integrity in everything that they do then there would be many sticking points where the 'good' (I'm getting hung up on utilitarianism, sorry) isn't achieved because it conflicts with ones own idea of what is right.

I suppose it depends on what you place more value on, the action itself or the outcome of the action. I would prefer to provide a 'good' outcome through a 'bad' action rather than vice versa.

The reason I didn't put it into speakers corner is that I wanted it to appeal to a broad audience, and speakers corner can be daunting for some I think.

 

[gillywibble]

The most important value is...?

x

find x

 

[Nix]

Both interesting points.

Not sure what you had me pegged as, or why I didn't strike you as a humanist but I'm glad that you're glad!
I don't tend to discuss philosophy much on here, I've done most of the discussions before and I find debating many philosophical things online quite draining and useless.

There's really nothing I can add to your view, it's a bit difficult to argue against having purpose. I suppose my view of passion and yours of purpose are quite closely linked.

It's probably important to add that purpose without compassion is nothing. Take Rand's objectivism for example: a very strong idea, but fundamentally flawed due to its selfish underpinning. It's correct in its understanding of total altruism possibly being a bad thing, but in many ways it is giving free-reign for individuals who take away other messages to behave any which way they want. It places far too much focus on satisfying the ego ignoring the question of how does one weigh an ego against another? You can't. Rand's objectivism is far too close to anarchism for my liking.

However, if we marry objectivism with Neitzsche's understanding of compassion (incidently, I feel in some regards that Rand is simply Neitzsche without empathy and that the idea of the Ubermensch was his Fountainhead), we have a very strong perspective. It defines the importance of purpose whilst, encorporating the ultilitarian restraint that Castiel identified with, whilst not being so quick to judge others as an ignorant mob, but rather individuals at different stages in their development.

Anyway, I feel as if I'm rambling. The point's in there somewhere.

 

[Tefal]

Cynic. I just applied to get into the audition stage. Why do I want to be in the advert? To try and further the idea of humanism? To get a free tshirt or to get £500? You decide.

I still don't understand what they hope to achieve by dicking a load of money up the wall to advertise a belief system?



surely the money would be better spend actually upholding those beliefs.

 

[Nix]

I believe the line of thought is that people are wasting their lives believing in falsehoods (as they perceive them) and are therefore living restricted, unfulfilled lives.

 

[Ahleckz]

I still don't understand what they hope to achieve by dicking a load of money up the wall to advertise a belief system?



surely the money would be better spend actually upholding those beliefs.

Lifting from their site:

new campaign to communicate the Humanist values of fairness, equality, reason and compassion. They’re the values that bind society together. They’re your values, and we want you to tell the world about them in the first ever Humanist TV commercial.

Research suggests that most people in the UK are secular in their outlook on life. We would go further. We think most people are essentially Humanist, but they don’t know it, because they’ve never heard of Humanism! We think it’s high time they did.

 

[Tefal]

I believe the line of thought is that people are wasting their lives believing in falsehoods (as they perceive them) and are therefore living restricted, unfulfilled lives.

So instead of using the money to save a couple of hundred lives for another few months you waste it thinking a bunch of daytime tv watchers will convert upon seeing Ahleckz read out a poorly prepared statement he got of the internet?


Fair enough, not sure i follow the logic but great.

 

[Ahleckz]

So instead of using the money to save a couple of hundred lives for another few months you waste it thinking a bunch of daytime tv watchers will convert upon seeing Ahleckz read out a poorly prepared statement he got of the internet?


Fair enough, not sure i follow the logic but great.

Money could always be better spent, no matter what you're doing. I don't know how you would promote humanist ideas without getting the message out there. I suspect (and their research seems to back this up - though I'm unsure where they got it from) that many people don't know what humanism is (and indeed there is debate about what it means today as Castiel touched on). Therefore, they are trying to raise awareness. Humanism isn't really about saving lives, it's about believing that reason, ethics and justice are the most important things and rejecting ideas such as pseudoscience and superstition in order to live a 'better' life.

Like I said, I've already answered the question and submitted my application. I just thought this would make for an interesting conversation. I'm not trying to find the answer here, and nor is there a correct one to be found.

I'm not sure where they are planning on advertising but I imagine (or hope) that it won't be between Jeremy Kyle and Bargain Hunt.

 

[Xordium]

Acceptance - until you can accept what you are and who you are then you can not do the same for others and until you do both of those things then trying to achieve all these other things ends up being rather fruitless. Well speaking for me I find this.

 

[Castiel]

The issue I have with the proposition of advertising in the way the quote implies is that it seems to imply that you must be secular to have humanist values or even to know you have humanist values and that I'm afraid is simply not true. Our entire society is built on humanist values only from a Christian perspective, just because someone believes in God or attends Church doesnt preclude them from having and abiding by a set of humanist values and it seems, to me at least, as if the secular lobby are attempting to redefine humanism as a solely secular entity, which I find a little disingenuous.

 

[Castiel]

Money could always be better spent, no matter what you're doing. I don't know how you would promote humanist ideas without getting the message out there. I suspect (and their research seems to back this up - though I'm unsure where they got it from) that many people don't know what humanism is (and indeed there is debate about what it means today as Castiel touched on). Therefore, they are trying to raise awareness. Humanism isn't really about saving lives, it's about believing that reason, ethics and justice are the most important things and rejecting ideas such as pseudoscience and superstition in order to live a 'better' life.

Like I said, I've already answered the question and submitted my application. I just thought this would make for an interesting conversation. I'm not trying to find the answer here, and nor is there a correct one to be found.

I'm not sure where they are planning on advertising but I imagine (or hope) that it won't be between Jeremy Kyle and Bargain Hunt.

But you are talking about Secularism, not Humanism. You can be both a Humanist and Religious, many religions including the Judeo-Christian ones have Humanist Values underpining their core beliefs.

The proposed advertisement appears to be about spreading Secularism, not educating peolle about Humanism.

 

[Nix]

The issue I have with the proposition of advertising in the way the quote implies is that it seems to imply that you must be secular to have humanist values or even to know you have humanist values and that I'm afraid is simply not true. Our entire society is built on humanist values only from a Christian perspective, just because someone believes in God or attends Church doesnt preclude them from having and abiding by a set of humanist values and it seems, to me at least, as if the secular lobby are attempting to redefine humanism as a solely secular entity, which I find a little disingenuous.

Although I'm not defending it, it is no different from the religious front laying claim to morality.

Humans are born secular and they are born altruistic; it's evolutionarily hard-wired into us as a social creature. It's life that alters both of these variables. Morality and ethics are merely an extension of our innate altruism yet the religious camp have claimed morality and ethics as their bread and butter for years.

Two wrongs don't make a right, but it's easy to see why the secularist angle is being pushed.

 

[Pestilence]

The most important value is the number of body thetans attached to you. Gotta keep that down.

 

[Castiel]

Although I'm not defending it, it is no different from the religious front laying claim to morality.

Humans are born secular and they are born altruistic; it's evolutionarily hard-wired into us as a social creature. It's life that alters both of these variables. Morality and ethics are merely an extension of our innate altruism yet the religious camp have claimed morality and ethics as their bread and butter for years.

Two wrongs don't make a right, but it's easy to see why the secularist angle is being pushed.

Indeed, I just felt that it was important to point out that Secular Humanism and Humanism are not necessarily the same thing and that the thread seems to be implying they are.

In the ways that matter secular humanism is simply another religious ideology only without reference to a God, it makes the assumption that there is no God/Gods in the same way that traditional religion makes the assumption there is.

There is, within humanism itself, a schism going on in regard to its definition, especially Secular Humanisms opposition to Traditional Religion. Like Tefal said, I'm not sure what the advertisment is hoping to accomplish, although I look forward to seeing it, especially as I contributed to it, albeit indirectly by having to pay a compulsory fee to attend local humanist meetings, something no Church has ever done.

 

[mushroomsoup]

power in all its forms

 

[semi-pro waster]

I'm not sure compassion is entirely necessary in life, or that important. Perhaps empathy would be more fitting. I can feel for people and share their troubles but not be sympathetic to their cause. I'm not sure if that is making sense. Perhaps I'm trying to wedge a difference between empathy and compassion which doesn't really exist? Can the two exist independently? Probably not.

It may be possible to split compassion from empathy but almost of necessity if you've got one that will usually be a fairly direct link towards the other so the division strikes me as somewhat forced.

However as I said I don't think it's entirely possible to pick one value as more important than all others, you really need a variety of values to ensure a balanced person. If you were to seriously choose one at the exclusion of others then that's likely to lead to issues although this is of course a theoretical exercise so it matters much less.

Without purpose we default to nihlism and madness. Even Neiztsche understood this.

I'm reading this as "Even Neitzsche understood this" i.e. 'if even he can understand it then so should everyone else'. Is that what you mean?

Cynic. I just applied to get into the audition stage. Why do I want to be in the advert? To try and further the idea of humanism? To get a free tshirt or to get £500? You decide.

Does it have to be a single motivation? I'd have thought it perfectly possible that all of those would provide some level of impetus to your application.

 

[Nix]

I'm reading this as "Even Neitzsche understood this" i.e. 'if even he can understand it then so should everyone else'. Is that what you mean?

Not at all. My point is that Neitzsche is remembered for creating nihilism; that nothing has any meaning whatsoever. He's the one that pushed the idea and that's all people tend to remember him for.

People often forget that he was also the same person to push the idea of overcoming such meaninglessness. He understood that nihilism is inherently unhealthy to our wellbeing and sought to try and overcome it. But you know, he did eventually turn mental and die, so that's up to you if you want to take that as a bad omen or not.

It's nothing to do with being a fanboy which I know you're not suggesting, but I resent the implication all the same. Afterall, "one repays a teacher badly if one always remains only a pupil."

 

[semi-pro waster]

Snipped for space.
It's nothing to do with being a fanboy which I know you're not suggesting, but I resent the implication all the same. Afterall, "one repays a teacher badly if one always remains only a pupil."

Apologies for the unintended implication, I didn't mean to imply fanboy status, I just found the phrasing slightly amusing so thought I'd query it.

 

[Nix]

My writing as of late has been left wanting. Either I need a break, or I need get back into practice. I'm not sure which.