The Problem with Simulation?

arknor · 24 Jul 2013 at 12:56

you are realy using jedward or whatever you call them as proof 2 people can be exactly the same?.

anyway let's assume we put your brain's data into another persons.

do you really think your tastes etc will be the same in another persons body with another persons tastes buds etc?
I don't believe you could do a brain transplant without losing what made you, you

Robertnpmk · 24 Jul 2013 at 12:56

arknor said:
Good luck with that I can only imagine the ridiculous storage requirements and It wouldn't be you it would be a copy of your storage.

You cant be denying that this will be possible at some point? Im not talking anytime soon. look at were we have come in the last 100 years alone.

and what do you think defines us apart from how we react to things. these are just impulses in our brains.

MowyTone · 24 Jul 2013 at 12:59

arknor said:
you are realy using jedward or whatever you call them as proof 2 people can be exactly the same?.

As far as I'm aware they are the only people that can put up with the other, everyone else wants to kill them...I wasnt using them as an example because they are twins

Hint: not to be taken seriously

G-MAN2004 · 24 Jul 2013 at 13:00

Robertnpmk said:
At some point, (Not in my lifetime) we will be able to upload your consciousness to an android/computer. Would this stop you from being real?

Well, it's not natural is it? I wouldn't care how they act, how clever they are or even if they take over the world and use us all as slaves, they're still just computers/robots/whatever.

crisbduck · 24 Jul 2013 at 13:01

Surely murder is of something living

Narj · 24 Jul 2013 at 13:01

Damn, so we're stuffed if someone decides to suddenly turn the matrix off.

Kishywish · 24 Jul 2013 at 13:03

G-MAN2004 said:
Well, it's not natural is it?

Neither's flying and thousands do it every day

IF it is possible to upload the electrical firing of neurons that we call consciousness into a physical storage medium, then what happens if you make a copy?

From the point of creation, that is now a separate individual too?

UncleRuckus · 24 Jul 2013 at 13:05

crisbduck said:
Surely murder is of something living

arknor · 24 Jul 2013 at 13:08

Robertnpmk said:
You cant be denying that this will be possible at some point? Im not talking anytime soon. look at were we have come in the last 100 years alone.

and what do you think defines us apart from how we react to things. these are just impulses in our brains.

at some point it will probably be possible to download a human brain we know it's only data storage.
I'm not convinced you could take a persons data and put them in another body and have the same person still.

surely your likes , dislikes , how you are etc is largely determined by your bodies senses and how your brain interprets them.

we know everyones brains are different no ones fires in the same way , epilepsy etc show on EEG's , autism can be detected from a brain scan.

let's say we swap an autistic person with a normal persons brain storage
Do you think the 2 people will be the same in the different bodies?
do you think the personalities will stay the same?

Robertnpmk · 24 Jul 2013 at 13:08

Kishywish said:
From the point of creation, that is now a separate individual too?

Yes erm No. This is why I have been thinking about this on and off since I read the book.

arknor · 24 Jul 2013 at 13:10

Robertnpmk said:
You cant be denying that this will be possible at some point? Im not talking anytime soon. look at were we have come in the last 100 years alone.

and what do you think defines us apart from how we react to things. these are just impulses in our brains.

at some point it will probably be possible to download a human brain we know it's only data storage.
I'm not convinced you could take a persons data and put them in another body and have the same person still.

surely your likes , dislikes , how you are etc is largely determined by your bodies senses and how your brain interprets them.

we know everyones brains are different no ones fires in the same way , epilepsy etc show on EEG's , autism can be detected from a brain scan.

let's say we swap an autistic person with a normal persons brain storage
Do you think the 2 people will be the same in the different bodies?
do you think the personalities will stay the same?
Do you think what makes you act and behave how you do will be carried over with what is basically just your memories

Eliot · 24 Jul 2013 at 13:10

IMO this is stupid.
If you start treating a simulation like its real then its not a simiulation.

B@Th*nG · 24 Jul 2013 at 13:25

no it's not genocide, irrespective of how "real" it is, it isn't.

B@

4T5 · 24 Jul 2013 at 13:28

Good question. :cool:

I personally cannot decide/work out at which point the simulation becomes real as I'm to stupid.

Made me think though which is why it gets the :cool:

smiley.

Robertnpmk · 24 Jul 2013 at 13:32

Thanks, I thought so too.

BTW don't bring this up with people at work, they might think your crazy!

Strife212 · 24 Jul 2013 at 13:40

B@Th*nG said:
no it's not genocide, irrespective of how "real" it is, it isn't.

B@

Why isn't it? What if our world is just a computer simulation.

arknor · 24 Jul 2013 at 13:42

did they ever do that experiment to see if our universe was a simulation ?

Reaper 392 · 24 Jul 2013 at 13:55

Having done a module for my degree in pretty much this exact topic I can tell you that you wont get any answers, you will just get a longer and longer argument. However, my thoughts in the general question of 'can a sufficiently complex simulated person be classified as a real person' I would say that there is no reason why not. Just because their brains would work differently doesn't mean that they cant have all the same mental functions as a human being. with sufficient computing power I don't see why this couldn't happen. If you can simulate the same mental functions as a human being then why shouldnt they be called a human being?

Kishywish said:
Hypothetically, if those simulated beings can pass a test for sentience (say, via an accepted testing method like the Turing Test for intelligent behaviour) then yes, turning off the machine is murder.

Unless murder is defined as the termination of corporeal sentient beings only?

I agree with your point, but if the current turing test isnt great (and the original turing test was even worse) for determining if a machine is sentient. The main problem with the turing test is that for the computer to be thought of as a human, it must act more human than an actual human.

for anyone interested in the sorts of questions the OP is asking then i would recommend watching/reading:
- Any book by Issac Asimov
- 'I will fear no evil' by Robert Heinlein (especially for those talking about brain transplants)
- And the original movie 'Ghost in the shell', especially for those talking about downloading your brain into a computer of some sort

Havana_UK · 24 Jul 2013 at 14:10

The concept of personality storage and simulation is also explored in Alastair Reynolds' Revelation Space series...if you enjoy the Culture series you'll probably like them too. Reynolds proposes three levels of simulation:
1. Gamma level (basically clever AI)
2. Beta level (behavioural modelling of a personality that effectively tries to predict how they behave in a given situation)
3. Alpha level (a complete functioning copy of a person's mind)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technology_in_Revelation_Space#Simulations

BTW, Banks' last Culture novel was The Hydrogen Sonata

/edit This topic is also explored by Peter F Hamilton in his Commonwealth Saga & Void Trilogy. Another good (but long) read.

Robertnpmk · 24 Jul 2013 at 14:14

Havana_UK said:
The concept of personality storage and simulation is also explored in Alastair Reynolds' Revelation Space series...if you enjoy the Culture series you'll probably like them too. Reynolds proposes three levels of simulation:
1. Gamma level (basically clever AI)
2. Beta level (behavioural modelling of a personality that effectively tries to predict how they behave in a given situation)
3. Alpha level (a complete functioning copy of a person's mind)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technology_in_Revelation_Space#Simulations

BTW, Banks' last Culture novel was The Hydrogen Sonata

yeah I have read all of his books to (apart from his newest one)

I actually meant The Hydrogen Sonata damn.