The two party system

Glaucus · 16 Dec 2012 at 20:21

They are one and the same thing a democracy is a popularity contest and nothing more. It doesn't matter what system you have, you will always end up with middle off the road and a two party system as that is what gains the most votes.

I would love a system without parties, but it wouldn't happen, you would just have hidden allegiances which would be almost identical to party whip.

The only system that would be better is a pure evidence system, not derived by votes or public opinion. But such a system would never be. Implemented and also have the issue of lots of current laws/opinions being outside an. Evidence system as they are based on things like morals which have no basis in evidence.

eddiemcgarrigle · 16 Dec 2012 at 20:22

Come to Scotland, we have the SNP and they are doing a mighty fine job.

trojan698 · 16 Dec 2012 at 20:22

But screw it?

Aye SNP are boss

[TW]Fox · 16 Dec 2012 at 20:28

MeatSack said:
How about, instead of fixed terms (for them to build their legacy), we hire and fire as appropriate.

So every time somebody makes a difficult, painful decision thats neccesary, he gets voted out by the majority who could never hope to understand the complex reasons behind his decision?

trojan698 · 16 Dec 2012 at 20:32

Yes. Just like our jobs. Why any different? What are the forces behind his decision?

Glaucus · 16 Dec 2012 at 20:33

[TW]Fox;23376641 said:
So every time somebody makes a difficult, painful decision thats neccesary, he gets voted out by the majority who could never hope to understand the complex reasons behind his decision?

Exactly.
Hire and fire based on public opinion is terrible. You would just end up with everyone wanting massive tax cuts and increase in spending. Such systems never work.

Politics based on public opinion on fixed terms is already terrible.

MeatSack said:
Yes. Just like our jobs. Why any different? What are the forces behind his decision?

What, just what!!!

Our jobs aren't based on public opinion, we don't get hired and fired on public opinion. How is it even remotely the same.

trojan698 · 16 Dec 2012 at 20:36

Not public opinion but mistakes are BAD.

Glaucus · 16 Dec 2012 at 20:37

MeatSack said:
Not public opinion but mistakes are BAD.

And what mistakes would those be?
Most mistakes do not get you fired at all. Lots of mistakes aren't even a given, they're a risk or a unavoidable consequence.

trojan698 · 16 Dec 2012 at 20:45

Mistakes might involve scrapping the 50p tax rate. Or taxing the working class in the form of pastys caravans or otherwise seemingly reversable decisions.

Mr Jack · 16 Dec 2012 at 21:06

MeatSack said:
In most democracies there exists only room for 2 partys. Party right and party wrong. Now to me this doesn't seem like a democracy, but a popularity contest with two over inflated egos everyone hates, and with only 2 boxes on the ballot slip what are we to do?

Correction: in most first past the post democracies there exists only room for 2 parties. More representative systems support more parties but rely on coalitions to form governments.

trojan698 · 16 Dec 2012 at 21:17

True. But the vote on FPTP system was a farce, don't you think?

[TW]Fox · 16 Dec 2012 at 21:34

MeatSack said:
Not public opinion but mistakes are BAD.

I'm not talking about mistakes. I'm talking about hard, difficult decisions which are neccesary for the country but unpopular with the general opinion, which will typically be uninformed.

Glaucus · 16 Dec 2012 at 21:35

MeatSack said:
Mistakes might involve scrapping the 50p tax rate. Or taxing the working class in the form of pastys caravans or otherwise seemingly reversable decisions.

How are either of those mistakes, let alone a stackable mistake.

You do know it wasn't actually a pasty tax.

RDM · 16 Dec 2012 at 21:36

MeatSack said:
True. But the vote on FPTP system was a farce, don't you think?

The farce was the woeful campaign run by the Yes camp. They targeted their campaign at people who were already going to vote yes rather than undecided voters or No voters.

trojan698 · 16 Dec 2012 at 21:37

Tories? Name one positive thing the conservative government have brought. Just one.

RDM said:
The farce was the woeful campaign run by the Yes camp. They targeted their campaign at people who were already going to vote yes rather than undecided voters or No voters.

Err OK, if you say so.

Glaucus · 16 Dec 2012 at 21:37

RDM said:
The farce was the woeful campaign run by the Yes camp. They targeted their campaign at people who were already going to vote yes rather than undecided voters or No voters.

It was a crap vote and a crap campaign. Well this vote is rubbish, but change is better than nothing, so please vote yes. Umm how about no.

Glaucus · 16 Dec 2012 at 21:41

MeatSack said:
Tories? Name one positive thing the conservative government have brought. Just .

The coalition has made loads of good policies.
How about all the school stuff they've done for a start
http://m.conservatives.com/policy/where_we_stand/schools.aspx

How about scrapping the higher tax.

How about massively increasing tax free allowance.

The new planning laws.

And plenty left to implement, like.
Being able to force a by-election

We have published a draft bill to introduce a so-called 'power of recall', enabling voters to force a by-election in cases of serious wrongdoing.

Not that I think everything they do is right far from it. Their energy and climate change policies are a shamble.

RDM · 16 Dec 2012 at 21:45

MeatSack said:
Err OK, if you say so.

What a well thought out and considered rebuttal...

elmarko · 16 Dec 2012 at 21:48

Glaucus said:
It was a crap vote and a crap campaign. Well this vote is rubbish, but change is better than nothing, so please vote yes. Umm how about no.

The problem with the AV vote was that 90% of the people who voted didn't even know how FPTP worked, let alone AV.

It was a waste of time anyway, as anybody who knew anything about the subject wanted proportional representation - not AV or FPTP.

But alas, it was in neither of the two main parties interest (as both Labour & Conservatives would lose out to proportional representation, which is why it wasn't even on the cards).

Glaucus · 16 Dec 2012 at 21:50

Lots of people wouldn't want PR either. It causes to many stale mate coalitions, which are unable to enact anything.