If you claim it to be a democracy why should the people not have the choice of whether they want to obey a strike order or not, and btw well done to ignoring my previous post.
Tube Strike -- 9th-11th
- Thread starter -Ad-
- Start date
If you claim it to be a democracy why should the people not have the choice of whether they want to obey a strike order or not, and btw well done to ignoring my previous post.
Permabanned
- Joined
- 2 Oct 2008
- Posts
- 1,069
rypt, I've stated that I don't know the full story of this dispute so I haven't ignored your point, I'm not a spokesman for the RMT you know!
They do have a choice, in the form of a vote. But if the majority that vote choose to persue industrial action then they should abide by it. If however they choose to fly in the face of the result then on their scabby backs be it!
They do have a choice, in the form of a vote. But if the majority that vote choose to persue industrial action then they should abide by it. If however they choose to fly in the face of the result then on their scabby backs be it!
The majority did not express a preference, therefore they have no mandate for strike action. Incidentally, what do you have against people who choose to do their jobs? Should they strike even if they disagree with the reasons for the strike and think it's stupid? If so, why? Its attitudes like this that have led to the association between trade unions and violent conduct, especially towards people crossing picket lines to do their job.
Why do you oppose freedom for union members to make their own decisions?
Permabanned
- Joined
- 2 Oct 2008
- Posts
- 1,069
Unions are about unity, sticking together, their collective power have shaped many industries in this country today and have worked to protect jobs and stop unscupulous management from abusing workers rights.
People who go against the majority weaken the Unions power and only serve to harm the rest of their members.
Once again, the majority did not vote for strike action...
As for unions protecting workers rights, unions like the RMT have gone way beyond that, and become legalised bullying clubs. Who is protecting the employees who don't agree with the union from the union? Who is protecting the employees who don't agree with the union when the union kills the company with their demands (see GM, Rover, Chrysler etc etc)?
Unions do have a purpose, but unions like the RMT have forgotten what it is, and instead are stuck in a 1970's 'us and them' war between them and the management. Bad unions and bad management appear to go hand in hand in the rail industry.
Permabanned
- Joined
- 2 Oct 2008
- Posts
- 1,069
If thats the case then why are you siding with the management?
I'm not, I'm siding with the workers who want to carry on working.
Of course, both the RMT and the management are at fault in all the negotiations, the RMT regularly make ridiculous demands regarding compensation, jobs etc, the management fail to set expectations correctly and satisfy employees understanding to prevent the union having the support for stupid demands. It is worth noting that these problems these days are only really present in state run or pseudo state run monopolies, the unions and management in the rest of the economy grew out of this behaviour 25 years ago.
Permabanned
- Joined
- 2 Oct 2008
- Posts
- 1,069
Even worse that you're siding with the scabs!
Seriously, stop it. You're a forum admin / owner I assume? Those with little or no experience on here are going to look up to you more than me and think it's alright to cross a picket line because of who you are.
I'm just trying to make a cautious point that it's not ok and they may well end up putting themselves in a bad place if they cross a picket line. Honestly, scabs are not good so don't fight their corner for them.
Knock it on the head, please!!!!
Seriously, stop it. You're a forum admin / owner I assume? Those with little or no experience on here are going to look up to you more than me and think it's alright to cross a picket line because of who you are.
I'm just trying to make a cautious point that it's not ok and they may well end up putting themselves in a bad place if they cross a picket line. Honestly, scabs are not good so don't fight their corner for them.
Knock it on the head, please!!!!
No, I'm siding with workers, the people unions are supposed to protect.
I'm not on the mod team (its a good 2.5 years since I was a Don here), Man of Honour means something else, and is rewarded every year for services to the forum.
I do think that you underestimate the members here, most of them will evaluate what is said, not who says it (and indeed, many of my views get regular criticism from posters), but the bottom line is everyone can make up their own mind. Let me be clear, though, in my opinion it is ok to cross a picket line if you disagree with the reason the picket is in place. You may disagree with that, but people should be free, and should not be intimidated to behave in a certain way if they disagree with it.
I will continue to fight their corner, because just as employers should not be allowed to intimidate people, neither should the unions that are supposed to help them. I see no reason why I should not speak out about bad union practices, when I do and have spoken out and offered advice over bad employers (and also told people when they are being over sensitive or unrealistic). I frequently deal with employees, managers, trade union representatives and employee focus group (think internal union) reps and I see good and bad examples of all of them, none of the bad examples get a pass from criticism.
Last edited:
The "Man of Honour" title is given to those who provide an outstanding contribution to the forums, something which he is currently doing now and many appreciate.
Permabanned
- Joined
- 2 Oct 2008
- Posts
- 1,069
Abyss, he isn't, IMO I think he's doing the opposite. He's setting a dangerous precedent.
Dolph, maybe I am underestimating some of the members of this forum but when I read posts on here I can't help but feel that a good number of them are teenagers and students at Uni, therefore they'll have little or no experience of the workplace or workplace manners.
Dolph, maybe I am underestimating some of the members of this forum but when I read posts on here I can't help but feel that a good number of them are teenagers and students at Uni, therefore they'll have little or no experience of the workplace or workplace manners.
Reading between the lines there I can't help but feel that you think that industrial action equals bad Union practice. Personally, I feel that if everything is done legally and everyone is given the chance to vote, whether they choose to or not then you abide by the outcome. If you choose to cross a picket line your on your own from now until eternity.
Assuming of course that by being in employment you should be a member of a union, which i personally feel is a ridiculous situation.
I work in the private sector and we manage perfectly well without a union. If you don't like the pay and conditions, you have the right to leave and work somewhere else. The sooner the RMT realise that having guaranteed employment is not a right the better.
I've yet to see any convincing evidence that the RMT do anything apart from disrupt my commute on a far too regular occurrence. I just wish TFL and the government would play hardball with them.
Some are, but again, I'm unconvinced that workplace bullying by unions is any more desireable than workplace bullying by managers, both should be challenged and discouraged.
Not always, Industrial action usually is the result of bad practice one way or another, but it's not always on the part of the union. What I will say is that most recent industrial action, from reading the issues and demands, is the result of bad union practice, but that does not mean that it should all be taken as such.
Withdrawal of Labour should be a last resort, when all attempts at reasonable negotiation has failed. Demanding a 5% pay rise when inflation is pretty much zero and the economy generally is struggling isn't a reasonable demand, nor are demands for high pensions, unwarranted job security and so on. Unions like the RMT and the FBU aren't interested in reasonable negotiation, they are interested in extracting the maximum they can through blackmail.
Perhaps I'm lucky, or perhaps I have a different attitude to work, but I'm yet to work for a truely bad employer (I've had bad managers, but they haven't been able to cause significant problems due to employer policies), and I'm always happy to negotiate my own terms and benefits in a non-collective fashion (because I prefer to be judged on my own performance, not anyone elses, and I can demonstrate my value to the business well). The employer I currently work for has a very good internal employee group, who are very good at both standing up for the employee rights and recognising the needs of the business, and coming up with proposals that are beneficial to all involved.
Again, I can't agree with your stance on scabs, it wouldn't be acceptable for management to take such a stance towards strikers, so why should unions be allowed and encouraged to take the same stance towards workers who disagree with them.
Edit: As Bush has said (and I missed), do you think everyone employed in an industry should be a member of the union? That is something else I couldn't agree with, I'm glad we have laws prohibiting closed shops in this country.
All this talk of scabs is making you sound like a bullying thug to be honest. If people don't want to strike or obviously don't care enough to vote to strike they shouldn't be treated like dirt. Judging by the lack of votes for the strike one would assume that their shouldn't be strike action. A lack of a vote should equal a vote against.
Soldato
- Joined
- 26 Jan 2003
- Posts
- 7,014
- Location
- Surrey
Soldato
- Joined
- 29 Jun 2004
- Posts
- 12,954
******* idiots. 
Soldato
- Joined
- 26 Jan 2003
- Posts
- 7,014
- Location
- Surrey
Thankfully I can get the bus to work but will need to get up even earlier than usual (0400 odd prolly!) in order to factor in the traffic and how busy the buses will undoubtedly be!!!
I suppose the point re: crossing the picket line is that if you are in the union and enjoy all the benefits it offers, you should also abide by the decision to strike etc - if you disagree you should leave.
The RMT must be utterly retarded, there is zero sympathy or support for them amongst the general public, the vast majority of which have faced pay freezes, pay cuts and/or redundancies. Fortunately I don't strictly have to use the tube, but would be pretty annoyed if I did have to!
The RMT must be utterly retarded, there is zero sympathy or support for them amongst the general public, the vast majority of which have faced pay freezes, pay cuts and/or redundancies. Fortunately I don't strictly have to use the tube, but would be pretty annoyed if I did have to!
Soldato
- Joined
- 25 May 2003
- Posts
- 9,361
- Location
- Limehouse
Whoopee, I'm in the middle of professional exams so I pretty much have to be in on Weds and Thurs (exams in two weeks). So, thanks very much you bunch of workshy, pampered idiots for making my life more stressful when I really could do with it not being.
Jeff Lynne, as others have alluded to, you are sounding like a militant here. People should be free to act as they wish. I'm not against strikes per se, when all other avenues have been exhausted, although agencies such as ACAS mean that this should be absolutely minimal.
One question I do have, is it possible for an employer to stop union membership in the private sector? I'm not overly bothered as my employer is officially great (best big company to work for, again this year
) but someone mentioned there was a contract clause stating that union membership isn't allowed and although it sounds a bit off, I cba to check my contract 
Jeff Lynne, as others have alluded to, you are sounding like a militant here. People should be free to act as they wish. I'm not against strikes per se, when all other avenues have been exhausted, although agencies such as ACAS mean that this should be absolutely minimal.
One question I do have, is it possible for an employer to stop union membership in the private sector? I'm not overly bothered as my employer is officially great (best big company to work for, again this year
) but someone mentioned there was a contract clause stating that union membership isn't allowed and although it sounds a bit off, I cba to check my contract
Soldato
- Joined
- 10 Nov 2003
- Posts
- 14,033
- Location
- Surrey, by the river
This strikes me as remarkable threatening behaviour from the kind of organization that is supposed to protect people. The RMT remind me of everything that's wrong with unionized workforces.