Turntable problems and upgrades

[Amoeba]

Following on from this thread: http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showthread.php?t=17628437 I have still not done anything about upgrading my turntable. The main reason is the question of whether the problems I am having with it would actually be resolved by an upgrade.

A lot of the time when listening to a record, it sounds distorted, very sibilancy (sp?), lack of detail etc, especially towards the centre of the record. It often sounds like the output from the deck is too high for the phono amp, although I have tried my TT with different amps with little difference. This does not occur with ALL my LPs, but it does with a high number of them.

I have checked over the setup of the deck, and have tried more tracking weight etc and nothing seems to be wrong (I could easily have missed something though, I am by no means a turntable expert )

Could this problem be because of a bad cartridge (Ortofon 510 mk2), bad tonearm (original with deck), bad deck (Thorens TD165), bad setup, or have I just had really bad luck with buying records? I can't believe that the vinyl everyone raves over is supposed to sound like this

Any advice would be much appreciated!

PS - to finalise my older thread, I got some Mordaunt Short MS20i Pearls as the speakers for my system

 

[Mr_Sukebe]

Quick sanity check, do you suffer the same issue with CD?
In addition, are you using a built in phono stage on the amp, or a seperate one? If you have a standalone phono stage, might be worth changing the input channel, just incase.

Assuming that you only have the issue with LP and it's not a channel input issue, that to me would suggest poor setup. Poorly aligned VTA can definitely result in the issue you mention, and the fact that it's worse when playing towards the centre of the deck suggests that this is likely to be the problem.
Might be worth biting the bullet and getting your deck checked by a good dealer, who's capable of fully setting up your deck/arm/cartridge.

 

[Dr. Gonzo]

Tone arm height / weight adjustment / needle.

One other thing, the record could be slightly warped near the centre, if so its possible the needle might be running higher in the groove causing it to sound hollow and lack detail.

 

[Amoeba]

Thanks for the replies. No I do not get the same issues with CD (have the same album on CD and vinyl in some cases). I have tried it with different amps (using the built in phono stage) on my Rogers, Sansui and Amstrong amps, all with the same effect, so I guess it's not the amplification causing the problem.

I was thinking of taking it along to the hifi shop in town, I guess I probably should do now. Any idea on the price they would charge for setting up the deck? It would be interesting to see what they make of it

 

[Dr. Gonzo]

Thanks for the replies. No I do not get the same issues with CD (have the same album on CD and vinyl in some cases). I have tried it with different amps (using the built in phono stage) on my Rogers, Sansui and Amstrong amps, all with the same effect, so I guess it's not the amplification causing the problem.

I was thinking of taking it along to the hifi shop in town, I guess I probably should do now. Any idea on the price they would charge for setting up the deck? It would be interesting to see what they make of it

You don't need to pay someone to set it up unless worse comes to worst mate its just a matter of adjusting the tonearm weight yourself and generally playing around until it sounds right.

 

[Mr_Sukebe]

You don't need to pay someone to set it up unless worse comes to worst mate its just a matter of adjusting the tonearm weight yourself and generally playing around until it sounds right.

Without trying to contradict you, there's more to it than "playing around".
To do the job well, the mount for your arm should be checked, heights and angles to ensure that the cartridge tracks with the correct angles. There are gauges to help, but if you've never had it checked before, would be worth doing as it's possible that the arm has been put in at the wrong height or mis-aligned, something that you probably wouldn't know how to look for.

 

[BF-Bert]

Check the turntable suspension is dead level and has a good "bounce" to it. Makes a hell of a difference.

 

[danza]

I used to have a Thorens TD160B mkII a few years back. It had an SME III tonearm, and I used it with an Ortofon 510. I hated the Ortofon. It was tinny, bright, and did cause problems with sibilance. And that was with it set up correctly. Apparently even with the better Ortofon styli on offer, it still has similar characteristics.

I changed it for a second hand Goldring G1012, which was leagues ahead. Bass was far more present and less woolly, the top end was reasonably smooth, and it tracked better. I think I paid about £20 for it.

I sold the G1012 for about £25, then looked at the old Nagaoka carts. I have an MP-II at the mo. It's cheaper than the G1012, and better IMO. I've had it for about 3 years, and although it doesn't get that much use at the mo, it is still excellent for the money I paid. You can only buy the MP-11 second hand AFAIK, as it was discontinued ages ago. I would imagine that you could pick one up for about £30 with a decent stylus. Your 510 is worth 10-25 quid depending on amount of use.

First of all I'd suggest you look at the setup of the turntable again. Have you actually measured the tracking force of the stylus? This makes a big difference. The best solution to tracking force measurement on the cheap-ish is the Shure SFG-2 gauge. Costs ~£20. I would also recommend buying an alignment protractor (£5), which ensures the cartridge is set correctly with respect to the tonearm/spindle. Misalignment of the cartridge can cause sibilance, and incorrect tracking force will sound bad at best and at worst damage your vinyl/stylus. There are plenty of guides online to show you how to set up a turntable, and some maybe specific to your deck/tonearm as Thorens are pretty popular.

Also check the bounce of your deck. It should wobble quite freely and the spindle/armboard/subchassis shouldn't contact any of the deck when at rest with a record on.

It will take a bit of getting used to setting it up with these tools, but it does get easy after a few times and is well worth the effort.

I do think however that the 510 will still be fatiguing. No matter what I did with mine I still hated it.

I could go on for ages, but I'll stop for now before I bore everyone to death....!