Sickeningly as callous as my comment is I don't really get the problem with that one. Are they expected to treat the guy who was only seconds ago trying to kill them? (Haven't seen the video so don't know how it played out)
UK soldiers to face prosecution for war crimes
- Thread starter enkoda
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Sickeningly as callous as my comment is I don't really get the problem with that one. Are they expected to treat the guy who was only seconds ago trying to kill them? (Haven't seen the video so don't know how it played out)
Associate
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I don't think you have any idea what you sign up for. I certainly wasn't handed a detailed contract. Rules of engagement are complex and the responsibility is put on you as a soldier to make the right call, sometimes in a split second.
I don't think most soldiers will be worried about this, I'm confident my battalion has nothing to hide. I'd be surprised if the rest of the army is concerned.
It will no doubt probably lead to someone hesitating in future and that might cost lives.
yup
at the very least you're not supposed to go around executing people when they're not a threat.... they do have rules of engagement
My suggestion is simple fact, they are trained to kill, I didn't imply they go around killing anything.
Exactly. £57.2m for this inquiry, £24m for the Al-Sweady inquiry (some sources quote £31m) and £13.5m for the Baha Mousa inquiry shows we are more concerned with prosecuting service personnel than equipping them with the resources they need.rare said:
My main issue is that we are sending our troops into war and forcing them to abide by the laws of our civil society.
The Al-Sweady case is a perfect example. Testimony from Iraqis (and their relatives who weren't even there!) who ambushed our soldiers and tried to kill them, causing an expensive and protracted inquiry that resulted in the allegations being dropped.dowie said:
I have no problem with a soldier finishing off someone who has just attempted to kill him.
I do
I mean taking your attitude maybe the Germans should have simply executed all those RAF pilots they shot down back in WW2 since they were originally trying to kill them? Even the Nazis didn't generally go for that approach except re: commandos and spies.
there are still rules in war
I definitely could not deal with being a soldier.
Soldato
I am not very happy about this whole process as I believe a number of the allegations are people trying to receive compensation and are being encouraged by lawyers and do-gooders to allege atrocity as they will have nothing to lose. However, soldiers are trained to fight within the laws of armed conflict, which includes the treatment of prisoners and civilians, if this was broken then investigations and prosecutions should take place. It is fighting within these laws that makes us legal and not like the terrorists we fight.
I would hope that, when a lot of the allegations are found to be false (which they will be) then those making the allegations are prosecuted, the money awarded to those who will undoubtedly have their lives made hell during the process.
I also hope that those who have profited by the rebuild of Iraq are 'requested' to foot some of the bill for the fake allegations.
I would hope that, when a lot of the allegations are found to be false (which they will be) then those making the allegations are prosecuted, the money awarded to those who will undoubtedly have their lives made hell during the process.
I also hope that those who have profited by the rebuild of Iraq are 'requested' to foot some of the bill for the fake allegations.
Caporegime
Good.
Soldiers should not imagine that they can act with complete impunity. No-one should be punished for a momentary misjudgement made under pressure; but where clear abuses have occurred which are either pre-meditated or grossly over the line there should be trials and convictions.
Soldiers should not imagine that they can act with complete impunity. No-one should be punished for a momentary misjudgement made under pressure; but where clear abuses have occurred which are either pre-meditated or grossly over the line there should be trials and convictions.
Soldato
Exactly, corruption is standard in that part of the world.
Caporegime
Sometimes you have to question whether our Great British establishment actually wants to win the war on terror, and if so why do they continually shoot themselves in the foot like this. It's no surprise that our old friend Phil Shiner is involved in this pointless, malicious investigation - wonder how many £millions of taxpayers money will be lining his own pockets at the end of this?
That was a war between two (+) sovereign nations,
this is a conflict with insurgents who do not represent the country they are fighting in.
If ISIS/Taliban et al would care to sign up to the Geneva Convention, then maybe they'd get treated fairly
Caporegime
I just don't get how they could take the testimony of someone we were fighting against. How could you possibly believe a word they would say?
What a bizarre analogy. You cannot compare that to close quarter combat. I'm not sure many of our RAF pilots wore explosive vests like Iraqi/Taliban insurgents do.
Having known people who served in Northern Ireland and The Falklands, you get to understand that an injured enemy soldier is as much a threat to you and your mates as one that isn't. It only takes the push of a button to set off a car bomb, IED or explosive vest.
Soldato
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Exactly this.
This isn't about charging people who engaged under normal circumstances, it is about investigation potential breaches in conduct that resulted in deaths.
All armies should hold their soldiers to this level.
You don't just wind them up, arm them up, set them off and let the ISIS the place as they wish.
All solider know, as they have been well trained, in what they can and cannot do.
Let them be investigated, lets hope they all come out of it clean.
They fact we investigate such matters holds up to a higher standard than those who would not.
Soldato
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This is rot George.
Utter rot.
Situations may be difficult, but the rules of engagement generally hold true, in virtually all situations. They are held to a high standard, and it shows in training.
In recent times, where British soldiers have been deployed they are not constant complaints and stories of bad soldiering, and the various havoc that is associated with older times, and less disciplined modern forces.
You don't hear these complaints being shouted over and over, so when they are made, they should be investigated, and hopefully found to be without merit.
So you go ahead and tell us how being in combat, being under fire turns you into a lawbreaking psychopath... as I think for the vast majority of troops, it doesn't.
Soldato
Higher being "ambulance-chasing British law firms"?
War - they are not animals, they know right from wrong. However the nature of this country is that because of austerity they will get screwed over and people will get rich off it. It's the UK way.
I hope nothing comes of it however I'm sure the people I know who want to be soldiers and are at school still will now reconsider.
That sounds an awful lot like the WWI Generals who considered war a glorious adventure.
I'm all for higher standards than 3rd world peasants, but not if I'm being shot at by them, or the guy I trained with just died and I can't fire on their position because of some rules of engagement.
it isn't an analogy - it was a straightforward rebuttal to your idea that it is OK to finish someone off who just tried to kill you
who'd have thought that eh? Maybe the armed forces could train people to search the enemy after a firefight... oh wait...
Soldato
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I don't recall hearing any stories of British troops in Iraq or Afghanistan being told they couldn't fire back when being fired upon.
I am certain we would have heard if this had been the case.
They looked at 1600 cases, and they have referred 280 of them for further investigation.
One death referred every few weeks over the course of the past 10-13 years.
Let them review them, I hope nothing comes to light, but if someone committed an illegal act, then it needs acted upon.
Mitigating circumstances aside, which will obviously be considered.
I am certain we would have heard if this had been the case.
They looked at 1600 cases, and they have referred 280 of them for further investigation.
One death referred every few weeks over the course of the past 10-13 years.
Let them review them, I hope nothing comes to light, but if someone committed an illegal act, then it needs acted upon.
Mitigating circumstances aside, which will obviously be considered.