UN Migration Pact - Criticising Migration = Hate Crime

[No1newts]

A lot of western societies spend so much the either fighting against mIngestion or alternatively working so hard to accommodate it.

Rather than doing such things would we not be better engaging at source and helping (financially, educationally, security etc) to improve the countries and communities so people do not feel the need to migrate in the first place?

It feels like we spend our time trying to deal with the flood rather than fixing the sage on the dam.

 

[VincentHanna]

Nice idea, but what would you have done about Syria when Russia were supporting the regime?

 

[No1newts]

Nice idea, but what would you have done about Syria when Russia were supporting the regime?

There are always outliers such as Syria where migration is simply an inevitable option because of the situation there. Dealing with the rest (economic migrants or those forced out by famine or smaller, local militias) are things the western world can influence.

I know some will claim/cry it's the west coming to the rescue which countries may not want but they clearly need it.

 

[D.P.]

A lot of western societies spend so much the either fighting against mIngestion or alternatively working so hard to accommodate it.

Rather than doing such things would we not be better engaging at source and helping (financially, educationally, security etc) to improve the countries and communities so people do not feel the need to migrate in the first place?

It feels like we spend our time trying to deal with the flood rather than fixing the sage on the dam.

There is no flood and this entirely misses the reason why people migrate or why most countries encourage immigration.

The UK welcomes immigrants to work for the NHS because it would collapse without such inward migration of skilled workers.

 

[D.P.]

How about relying upon current, perfectly functional legislation to do the job properly instead of potentially introducing further confusion? The U.N. are a great organisation for preaching stuff and actually doing very little so I'll be happy for our legal system to do its job, thanks.

Fair enough, countries that want to adopt a framework, fill your boots and take what you need from it, but don't take it as gospel.

The paranoid loon in me thinks that this whole thing is an attempt to deflect attention and blame away from Merkel for an extremely bad decision.

The UN is not trying to force countries to adopt legislation and take away sovereignty, the UN is imply pointing out that the countries should ensure their own legislation protects migrants.

But yeah, your conspiracy theory sounds much more plausible.

 

[MookJong]

First you should perhaps answer why you don't like diversity.

From what I can see and experienced it complicates life and creates more chaotic environments devoid of common meaning.

American cities are basically massive commercial enterprises and that is really all you can end up with in my opinion if you follow this path.....a shared capitalist experience.

I live in a small coastal town and I love it's history and heritage and character. I work for a European company and had colleagues visit where I live. They loved it's quirky Britishness, why would you want to dilute this?

If you love where you live then maybe you see things differently.

 

[D.P.]

From what I can see and experienced it complicates life and creates more chaotic environments devoid of meaning.

American cities are basically massive commercial enterprises and that is really all you can end up with in my opinion if you follow this path.....a shared capitalist experience.

And how on earth does stopping immigration not also complicate like and make a more chaotic environment devoid of meaning?
All cities are massive commerical enterprise, without or without immigration.


"Share capitalist experience" - so you ant to live in some kind of communist state?

This really doesn't make any sense.

 

[MookJong]

And how on earth does stopping immigration not also complicate like and make a more chaotic environment devoid of meaning?
All cities are massive commerical enterprise, without or without immigration.


"Share capitalist experience" - so you ant to live in some kind of communist state?

This really doesn't make any sense.

You are totally missing my point, I'm saying the American dream is capitalism....this is the common bond that holds a nation of immigrants together. In my opinion this is the only bond that works. But what happens if you don't want that to be your common bond?

Communism is one of the greatest disasters of the 20th century I most certainly do not want that.

 

[Caracus2k]

EU migrants in the UK are paid more than UK nationals.

You should quote a source for that as I suspect it based on the normal flawed (often deliberately so) use of statistics.

Maybe you were working of this claim or something similiar?

EU migrant workers contribute £2,300 more per year to UK than average British citizen, study reveals

Which sounds like EU migrants are just great for the UK now doesn't it?

Unfortunately anyone with even a tenuous understanding of stats should spot the big problem with this..... The 'average' British citizen is a very different group then the notional 'average' EU migrant to the UK at the current time.

The UK has only had mass EU migration since the late 1990's with most coming in the last 10-15 years. So the average EU migrant isn't old enough to have retired and be drawing a pension whilst costing the tax per more in health cost and subsidised services then the working age population. Migrants tend to be younger people so it's not really any surprise that they are net tax payers... . But guess what they get older like anyone else and end up costing the tax payer more money then they are contributing as a general rule.

Of course the article engages in its own twisting of the facts like this gem...

What’s more, this strongly positive average contribution persists over a lifetime: most migrants arrive fully educated, and many leave before the costs of retirement start to weigh on the public finances.

But as I pointed out above how can we ascertain this is the case given most eu migrants ever to have come to the UK since the conception of the modern welfare and tax state have come in the last two decades and so are not old enough generally to have recaed retirement age?

The extra lifetime costs would be accounted for largely in young age/birth and education costs. Which there children will receive. And of course its not particularly moral to rely on a constant stream of overseas labour trained at Luther countries expense anyway.

There is also no accounting for any collateral costs to the existing population who may be dispatched, to a certain degree, economically by incoming migrants.


To be convinced of any economic benefit I want to a break down divided by ages (I. E how much does the average 34 year old eu migrant earn pay in tax vs the average UK citizen of the same age and repeat for all ages)

Also combined with a carful assessment of the knock on costs of immigration in infrastructure and changes from migration affecting the existing population.

 

[Mason-]

Also what's the ratio of NHS workers to population? 100 to 1? Is the ratio of EU workers coming here a higher ratio? If it's 200 migrants and 1 works in the NHS then there's not enough from immigration to support the current ratio so it's putting additional strain on the NHS.

 

[VincentHanna]

12% of workers in the NHS are migrants, over 5% are EU migrants.

So 1 in 20 NHS workers are EU migrants.

I seriously doubt 1 in 20 NHS patients are EU migrants.

 

[Caracus2k]

12% of workers in the NHS are migrants, over 5% are EU migrants.

So 1 in 20 NHS workers are EU migrants.

I seriously doubt 1 in 20 NHS patients are EU migrants.

Another disengenious point!

Eu migrants are, on average, younger then the UK working age and above average.

Older people are the most common users of the NHS and EU migrants are vastly underrepresented in this group compared to the general population.

On the other hand let's look at births.. ...

I could not find any EU only figures

In the UK, the percentage of live births to women born outside the UK rose to27.1% (provisional) in 2017, compared with 26.9% in 2016.


I imagine that's far more than 5% from EU mothers

 

[VincentHanna]

So? People have babies, so what?

There were 626,203 deliveries in NHS hospitals during 2017-18, a decrease of 1.6 per cent from 2016-17

The NHS treat 1.4 million people every 24 hours, so births are a tiny part of NHS usage.

 

[Caracus2k]

So? People have babies, so what?

There were 626,203 deliveries in NHS hospitals during 2017-18, a decrease of 1.6 per cent from 2016-17

The NHS treat 1.4 million people every 24 hours, so births are a tiny part of NHS usage.

You were either being ignorant or or disengious about the vastly different population makeup of these two groups:

'eu workers in the NHS'

and

'patients needing NHS services'

...when you tried to claim that EU migrants where so great for the NHS with your un supported claims about numbers of EU patients vs the known percentage of EU workers in the NHS.


I pointed out that this either mistaken or disgengeous pount was a temporary statistical factor reliant on two things

1) the UK hasn't had mass EU migration for that long since the inception of the NHS so we don't have many EU pensioners in the UK, who are the most frequent and expensive patients, I'm average, for the UK.

And

2) The average EU migrant is far younger then the average working age upwards UK citizen.

The births figure gives an indication of the demographic picture going forward in the UK.

 

[VincentHanna]

Do the maths Caracus

There are approx 16 million people admitted to hospital every year
Approx 23 million who use A&E

If there are 626,203 deliveries and 27.1% of those (169,701) are migrants, and 1 in 20 NHS workers are EU migrants, then it's not likely that 1 in 20 NHS admissions are EU migrants.

 

[Caracus2k]

An other factor frequently ignored re migrants (EU and non) is remittances.....

Even if the average migrant was to pay more in taxes then a UK national if they are sending a significant proportion of their earning abroad that's money not spent on goods and services in the UK that in turn would have generated tax revenue for the UK goverment which is funelled abroad in this case. It also reduces demand for jobs in the UK that would have been providing the goods and services that money would have bought.

 

[Caracus2k]

Do the maths Caracus

There are approx 16 million people admitted to hospital every year
Approx 23 million who use A&E

If there are 626,203 deliveries and 27.1% of those (169,701) are migrants, and 1 in 20 NHS workers are EU migrants, then it's not likely that 1 in 20 NHS admissions are EU migrants.

I never said that the overall number of EU patients was proportionally above the amount of EU staff in the NHS!

I was pointing out that this claim is either one made disengeniusly or ignorantly because it is the old who make up a massively disproportionate amount of patients in the NHS both as an absolute number and by cost of treatment.

We are just at a time where we haven't had mass EU migration for long enough to have that many pensioners who originally came from the EU being treated in the NHS.!

The birth figures are somewhat a guide however to usage of the NHS by the more working age only section of the populace. As you can see migrants make up a significant tranche of usage of maternity services.

(subject to assessing the birth rates of the different groups)

 

[LabR@t]

There is no flood and this entirely misses the reason why people migrate or why most countries encourage immigration.

The UK welcomes immigrants to work for the NHS because it would collapse without such inward migration of skilled workers.

Rubbish, perhaps train our own people instead of stealing foreign nationals who should be working in the countries that paid for the training. Not only are we taking away the opportunity for natives to train,we are leaving other countries short of health care workers.

In turn lowering our own standard of health care.

 

[LabR@t]

I can remember when we had automatic car washers, they are a thing of the past now where I live. They have been replaced with these skilled migrants that seem to want to come here to wash the mud off my csr for a fiver.

 

[No1newts]

There is no flood and this entirely misses the reason why people migrate or why most countries encourage immigration.

The UK welcomes immigrants to work for the NHS because it would collapse without such inward migration of skilled workers.

I have no issue with skilled migration and this article and thread has not been about skilled migration but about the UN trying to 'force' a hate crime definition and in essentially open up all migration to be free from control.

Skilled migrants will migrate and generally add to the economy. Unskilled migrantion, simply moving for food/safety etc, could be more controlled by removing the root cause and help grow a standard of living in the point of departure.

Do you see mass migration between western european powers? No, you absolutely see some skilled migration and people pursuing some job opportunities but you do not see what you see from the third world as standards are broadly similar. This is what we should seek to promote and encourage as opposed to dealing with issues at the end point.