Upgrade from DT990 ?

[last_grimm]

Hi - New here, hope not violating any rules

I have been using DT 990Pro 250ohm version for gaming on PS4 pro for over a month now.

Initially the high treble gave me nightmares, but eventually I got amp/DAC (soundblaster G6) and with EQ they sound pretty good now.

However I’m wanting to move up a notch and want something better, even more immersive.

P.s. -

1. Avoiding to buy from drop US as I’m in Sweden and returning is pain.

2. 30% competitive and 70% immersive gaming. More focus on Immersive/fun factor.

3. 200 - 300 Euro budget

4. Purpose - Only Gaming, no music.

5. Considering AKG712K. Heard great things about them.

6. Any recommendation for Mod mic with something like AKG712K ? (Budget friendly option)


Many thanks !

 

[EsaT]

I have both DT990 (Edition/Premium) and K712 and for that 30% competitive/70% fun gaming wouldn't consider K712 worth the price.
Sure it does some better for competitive/details, but again loses some in fun factor.

And comfort wise that "automatically" adjusting headband is worser for different head shapes/sizes than Beyer's good old manual adjustment:
It relies partially on pressure to keep cups positioned and that could feel more on bigger head.
Big head could also fast stretch some elastic strings part of that adjustment system.
Again if head is small, especially downward narrowing, that pressure might not be enough for secure position keeping and it could feel like ear cups are trying to creep down.
(my head is at that limit)

Also long term usage wise Beyer's replament ear pads are well priced...
While you better sit firmly on chair when checking K712's ear pad price as in one pad costing nearly as much as two pairs of Beyer's pad.
(AKG has cheaper pads for K701/K702, but those would change sound some if used on K712)

 

[Ryan-3]

I had a similar path from getting my DT990's, and I didn't see much that was worth getting in the price bracket above them. If I'm honest, the only jump I can recommend is to the DT1990 Pro's. Admittedly, they are well above your budget, however, they're bloody incredible. Feel a lot more premium and the sound is... insanely good. After those however, I'm not sure what would 'kick it up a notch' in the price bracket, as 990's are really good for their price.

 

[Gray2233]

I'd recommend reading through this:

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/mad...eze-lcd-1-mobius-fixed-missing-images.534479/

For your budget coming from a DT990 I can't think of a whole lot that would be worthwhile, perhaps the Audeze Mobius if you can source one in budget?

 

[doc]

Audeze Mobius are awesome, but if you're prepared to wait a month or so, the Audeze Penrose use the same planar drivers and are designed for console usage. Cheaper than the Mobius too.

 

[sHo0sH]

Also look at the hyper X cloud orbit. They are the exact same drivers as the mobius just less features. They sound awesome

 

[C64]

just get fidelio x2hr they are simply more fun than anything else in the price range as said above probably looking at £300 + if wanting a major upgrade from dt990 pro
if you want soundstage and detail and fun get the fidelio

 

[last_grimm]

I have both DT990 (Edition/Premium) and K712 and for that 30% competitive/70% fun gaming wouldn't consider K712 worth the price.
Sure it does some better for competitive/details, but again loses some in fun factor.

And comfort wise that "automatically" adjusting headband is worser for different head shapes/sizes than Beyer's good old manual adjustment:
It relies partially on pressure to keep cups positioned and that could feel more on bigger head.
Big head could also fast stretch some elastic strings part of that adjustment system.
Again if head is small, especially downward narrowing, that pressure might not be enough for secure position keeping and it could feel like ear cups are trying to creep down.
(my head is at that limit)

Also long term usage wise Beyer's replament ear pads are well priced...
While you better sit firmly on chair when checking K712's ear pad price as in one pad costing nearly as much as two pairs of Beyer's pad.
(AKG has cheaper pads for K701/K702, but those would change sound some if used on K712)

I have heard great things about 712K, like the best soundstage in 1000$ category, second only to HD800. I'm not a bass head, but do like nice tight bass. Something I miss in DT990.

After pairing DT990 with G6, the sound has improved a lot, but at times at very high volume it gives up, cranks. And sometimes the treable bothers me (rare after the EQ though).

I had a similar path from getting my DT990's, and I didn't see much that was worth getting in the price bracket above them. If I'm honest, the only jump I can recommend is to the DT1990 Pro's. Admittedly, they are well above your budget, however, they're bloody incredible. Feel a lot more premium and the sound is... insanely good. After those however, I'm not sure what would 'kick it up a notch' in the price bracket, as 990's are really good for their price.

Well, If they really are that great, I can maybe look at stretching my budget. However I'm afraid of the Beyer treble trouble sound signature. The DT990 gave me some hard time initially. Only after lot of EQ & G6, I started liking them. But still at times I find them bright for my taste. Afraid I get the same with DT1990.

I'd recommend reading through this:

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/mad...eze-lcd-1-mobius-fixed-missing-images.534479/

For your budget coming from a DT990 I can't think of a whole lot that would be worthwhile, perhaps the Audeze Mobius if you can source one in budget?

On it sir, starting parallel research on Audeze Mobius.

Edit - Looks like they are made for PC use, on PS4 you don't get most of the features

Audeze Mobius are awesome, but if you're prepared to wait a month or so, the Audeze Penrose use the same planar drivers and are designed for console usage. Cheaper than the Mobius too.

Yes, I can wait. Are they really that good ?

Edit - Looks good, but they are wireless

Personally I prefer wired. And most of features like 3D audio etc which makes Mobius great not there in Penrose.

Also look at the hyper X cloud orbit. They are the exact same drivers as the mobius just less features. They sound awesome

Isn't hyper X Cloud falling under category of "Gaming Headsets" which are high on marketing & not so great on audio ?

I was using Steelseries Arctis Pro + GamDAC before, wont the Hyper X fall under same category ?

just get fidelio x2hr they are simply more fun than anything else in the price range as said above probably looking at £00 + if wanting a major upgrade from dt990 pro
if you want soundstage and detail and fun get the fidelio

Let me check mate. Any idea how would they fare against AKG712K in terms of sound stage & imaging ?

 

[sHo0sH]

Isn't hyper X Cloud falling under category of "Gaming Headsets" which are high on marketing & not so great on audio ?

I was using Steelseries Arctis Pro + GamDAC before, wont the Hyper X fall under same category ?

The orbits have the same sound as the Audeze Mobius, as HyperX have teamed up with them to produce the headphone, they use exactly the same drivers and basically the same software as well, they just look slightly different and do not have bluetooth.

I personally have had the DT880's with a mixamp, some Arctis pro wireless, and Sennheiser HD650s and from that sample group the HyperX have been my favourite to game with, the immersion you get from the sub-bass due to the planar magnetic drivers is fantastic. There's a whole thread on here somewhere dedicated to the Mobius (and therefore the Cloud orbit) There are two models, the Orbit and the Orbit S the latter has the head-tracking gimmick.

 

[Ryan-3]

*snip*

I guess if you were to purchase from somewhere like Amazon, you would be able to give them a go and return if you didn't like their sound.

I don't use them with any EQ tweaks and don't find these bright, with the highs instead being incredibly detailed. But I know exactly what you mean about the 990s, as I did find the same issue with mine.

 

[EsaT]

I have heard great things about 712K, like the best soundstage in 1000$ category

Well, If they really are that great, I can maybe look at stretching my budget. However I'm afraid of the Beyer treble trouble sound signature. The DT990 gave me some hard time initially.

K712 loses step to K701/702 in soundstage, because of more accurate and more neutral frequency response of the latter.
(I have also second hand bought K702 for neutral reference)
Though that soundstage is really complete misnomer:
Headphone can't ever create any cues brain uses to position sounds.
Those need to be in signal itself.
And if signal lacks all cues, like some pure stereo speaker mix, only "soundstage" you'll ever get with headphones is sound inside left or right ear (just like when you have fly in ear) or in center of head.


Amiron Home should have clearly smoother treble than usual for Beyer.
(btw, neither AKGs are smooth on treble compared to Sennheisers etc)
Though can't say accurately how Amiron Home work on gaming compared to DT990.
Amiron Home's "brother" with same Tesla driver, DT1990 Pro, should be apparently more detail focused and faster.
(while Amiron Home is more tuned for music with some amount smoother sound)
DT1990 also comes with two different ear pads: Analytical with more neutral bass and few dBs bass boosting pads.

 

[Ryanr1987]

Soundstage is mostly the manipulation of the upper mids. If you EQ the hole in the HD800, it sounds forward, more HD600 like. Forward upper mids will make sounds more in your face that live in that range, including perceived depth. Pad depth helps, I feel AKG's like the 701 benefit from pad depth as they're not that recessed in the upper ranges. They also respond well to DSP and end up sounding really airy, spacious. The K712 is warm, it has a fairly wide perceived stage, I'd say in the range of the 990 maybe better control of the treble and the driver and slightly more perceived depth due to less mid bass.

An upgrade to the 990 for sound quality would be something like a HD650 level. For a similar signature though, you're looking at a DT1990 but the HD650 is cheaper, more resolution, I don't fall for that force fake detail nonsense, the resolution isn't comparable; the 1990 is a better version of the 990 though, still a bit harsh, less so. I recommend the HD650 as the complaints you have are gone on that headphone.

For gaming, they're narrow in comparison as the upper mids are forward, but the HD650 is more accurate, you get the chesty feeling of the male voice in dialog, lots of micro detail. great female vocals, scales with better gear. I've never really found a headphone good for both, the LCD-2 did well but too heavy for long sessions. Hifiman Ananda is great here but it's a lot of money. Most headphones that have good depth perception generally don't sound good for music as they have recessed mids and some spikes here and there upstairs. They will be fine for competitive gaming, not as spacious as a 701 but you get the benefits of them sounding damn good for everything else. It's a big step up from the 712 if you plan to get better amps, source gear in the future.

 

[last_grimm]

The orbits have the same sound as the Audeze Mobius, as HyperX have teamed up with them to produce the headphone, they use exactly the same drivers and basically the same software as well, they just look slightly different and do not have bluetooth.

I personally have had the DT880's with a mixamp, some Arctis pro wireless, and Sennheiser HD650s and from that sample group the HyperX have been my favourite to game with, the immersion you get from the sub-bass due to the planar magnetic drivers is fantastic. There's a whole thread on here somewhere dedicated to the Mobius (and therefore the Cloud orbit) There are two models, the Orbit and the Orbit S the latter has the head-tracking gimmick.

hey this looks interesting. Let me research further on them. Adding Orbit S to the list. Need to check if the head tracking gimmick works with PS4.

I guess if you were to purchase from somewhere like Amazon, you would be able to give them a go and return if you didn't like their sound.

I don't use them with any EQ tweaks and don't find these bright, with the highs instead being incredibly detailed. But I know exactly what you mean about the 990s, as I did find the same issue with mine.

How would you compare the DT990 vs the DT 1990 ? Is it still the same sound signature with more details ? Or the treble issue of 990 is solved in 1990 ?

Unfortunately no Amazon here in Sweden, but do have providers from where I can order & then return.

K712 loses step to K701/702 in soundstage, because of more accurate and more neutral frequency response of the latter.
(I have also second hand bought K702 for neutral reference)
Though that soundstage is really complete misnomer:
Headphone can't ever create any cues brain uses to position sounds.
Those need to be in signal itself.
And if signal lacks all cues, like some pure stereo speaker mix, only "soundstage" you'll ever get with headphones is sound inside left or right ear (just like when you have fly in ear) or in center of head.


Amiron Home should have clearly smoother treble than usual for Beyer.
(btw, neither AKGs are smooth on treble compared to Sennheisers etc)
Though can't say accurately how Amiron Home work on gaming compared to DT990.
Amiron Home's "brother" with same Tesla driver, DT1990 Pro, should be apparently more detail focused and faster.
(while Amiron Home is more tuned for music with some amount smoother sound)
DT1990 also comes with two different ear pads: Analytical with more neutral bass and few dBs bass boosting pads.

Well I agree that the soundstage(positional cues) needs to be there in the signal for the headphones to process. The G6 does a decent job with it's SBX. However the only thing keeping me away from the 1990 is the high treble.

Soundstage is mostly the manipulation of the upper mids. If you EQ the hole in the HD800, it sounds forward, more HD600 like. Forward upper mids will make sounds more in your face that live in that range, including perceived depth. Pad depth helps, I feel AKG's like the 701 benefit from pad depth as they're not that recessed in the upper ranges. They also respond well to DSP and end up sounding really airy, spacious. The K712 is warm, it has a fairly wide perceived stage, I'd say in the range of the 990 maybe better control of the treble and the driver and slightly more perceived depth due to less mid bass.

An upgrade to the 990 for sound quality would be something like a HD650 level. For a similar signature though, you're looking at a DT1990 but the HD650 is cheaper, more resolution, I don't fall for that force fake detail nonsense, the resolution isn't comparable; the 1990 is a better version of the 990 though, still a bit harsh, less so. I recommend the HD650 as the complaints you have are gone on that headphone.

For gaming, they're narrow in comparison as the upper mids are forward, but the HD650 is more accurate, you get the chesty feeling of the male voice in dialog, lots of micro detail. great female vocals, scales with better gear. I've never really found a headphone good for both, the LCD-2 did well but too heavy for long sessions. Hifiman Ananda is great here but it's a lot of money. Most headphones that have good depth perception generally don't sound good for music as they have recessed mids and some spikes here and there upstairs. They will be fine for competitive gaming, not as spacious as a 701 but you get the benefits of them sounding damn good for everything else. It's a big step up from the 712 if you plan to get better amps, source gear in the future.

The thing limiting me to soundblaster G6 is it's compatablity with PS4, however with PS5 about to launch, not sure what will happen to Amp/DAC G6.

On other hand, isn't HD650 same as HD6XXX sold by Mass from US ?

The HD650 is some USD 400 here in Sweden. Other option is to buy from US mass, but I can't return them. Though they will cost me 220USD + 15 USD shipping. whereas AKG712K Pro is costing me some USD 295.

 

[Ryan-3]

@last_grimm I'd say the harshness has completely gone for the 1990's. The treble is very detailed, even at high volumes.

 

[EsaT]

The thing limiting me to soundblaster G6 is it's compatablity with PS4, however with PS5 about to launch, not sure what will happen to Amp/DAC G6.

On other hand, isn't HD650 same as HD6XXX sold by Mass from US ?

With consoles intended for use with equipment normal home users have, I can see optical output remaining in PS5.
Anyway with DD5.1 patents expired there shouldn't even be any license costs.
Again if PS5 brings out its own head shape customizable HRTF SBX G6 can be also used as headphone amplifier.
Better headphone amplifier is something I can't see consoles having.


Sennheiser's famous for music HD600-serie models are mostly tuned for music with their "warm" sound, meaning smoothed treble and such.
That's not good for positional cues of binaural sound, which likes "straight and raw" reproduction.

My experiences of headphones I have matches well with Mad Lust Envy's guide and this is what he says about HD650:

Soundstage:​

...However, I didn't find them to be stellar in terms of depth, so the sense of space for gaming, wasn't as good as I would have hoped. I was always expecting the HD650 to not be the greatest pairing for Dolby Headphone, and my fears were slightly warranted. The front/back depth isn't great. Let's get that out of the way. The width is good, but not close to being the best. The DT990 destroys the HD650 in both depth and width. So how's the air within the soundstage? Well, the problem with the HD650, is that it's a very full sounding headphone. Thick, warm tone tends to make the soundstage seems less airy and smaller.

Positioning:​

Positioning and soundstage tend to go hand in hand, so if the soundstage isn't great, the positional cues will suffer. How did the HD650 fare positional-wise? Well, they were good. Not great, and could obviously be better, but they do their job.

Clarity:​

...I've heard better overall (even the 990's are better for soundwhoring). The problem is that the HD650 is a very thick sounding headphone. Basically, the issues I explained in the soundstage section is what hurts clarity for gaming purposes.​

 

[Ryanr1987]

The 6xx are HD650's to the best of my knowledge, produced in the same factory in Romania. Not really a thick headphone like they were years ago, for the past 4 years or so they're more forward, aggressive around 5k. I still find them narrow sounding due to the 5k shout pushing things forward for those who like a sense of depth for games maybe not the best choice but they're more natural in FR than most. The HD650 are a headphone you buy that is an investment, they scale, last forever and compete in any price range.