Upgrade Mordaunt Short Premiere 5.1 speakers to Dali Spektors? Worth it?

NeilF

NeilF

NeilF

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So I have a rather old 5.1 package of Mordaunt Short Premiere speakers, which I upgraded the front pair of:-

And this is all working through my Onkyo TX-NR646 amp and I listen to a mix of music and home theatre etc.


Three considerations:-
  • The current front 902 speakers are quite deep, with one on a shelf, very very close to the rear of the unit. Not ideal (being rear ported)! If I can replace with a less deep speaker, great!
  • I feel the center speaker maybe isn't as good as it could be. It's in a dedicated shelf immediately below the TV, and there's enough room to fit a bigger speaker in there.
  • The woofer feels a tad disconnected, if that's a good term. It doesn't feel tied/combined into audio at times, almost like it's not controlled enough?

So after looking around I'm wonder if a Dali Spektor speaker setup might be the answer?
  • Front: Spektor 1 or if really worth while the 2s - The 2s are 3cm less deep than my existing fronts, so would give an inch more of space on that shelf at the rear. The 1s would give loads more rear space, so would be the more logical choice space wise at least.
  • Rear: Spektor 1 or keep my MS 302?
  • Center: Spektor Vokal (fitting into a dedicated slot under the TV (50cm x 16cm)
  • Sub: C-8 D (down firing) or E-9 F (front firing)

In people's opinion, is that going to give me a good solid noticable improvement in audio quality over my old Mordaunt Short speaker package? Is it going to be £ well spent? ie: My nightmare would be I plug it all in and there's little/no real improvement, as the limitation is the amp, and the Mordaunt Shorts were about the same audio quality etc as any new speakers etc...


There is an alternative of using Q Acoustics 3010i and 3020i? But their sub is definately too big, so I guess I could still use a Dali (or similar) one with it.

Thoughts & advice welcome...
 
Short answer; No.

Decent speakers are decent speakers, whether they're from today or 10 years ago or more.

The Laws of Physics and economics don't alter. For a similar cost (adjusted for inflation) your new speakers will be of a similar design to you old speakers. It'll be a bass reflex box with a similar size bass driver and tweeter. You won't get something the same size or smaller that magically produces masses more bass or is far more efficient or has hugely-more resolution. If it's a smaller box it'll make less bass. If the bass driver is a smaller diameter then it'll make less bass. If the reflex port is on the front then it'll sound a bit less boomy up close to the wall; but that's about it.

You asked a fairly similar question a week or so ago: https://forums.overclockers.co.uk/t...ng-speakers-do-you-need-a-subwoofer.18879096/

The advice remains the same. Buy a better centre speaker. Buy a better sub. Then work on getting them set up right.

Putting the centre speaker inside what is effectively a box or tunnel inside your TV stand will make it sound crap. It doesn't matter how good the speaker is, it will just sound like anything in a tunnel. You need to block out the empty space with foam.

A bigger centre will flesh out voices better though. But you've gotta fix that empty space before you'll get the full benefit.

As before, your sub doesn't dig that deep, but the problem of it sounding separate could be just down to set-up.

What you're describing sounds like the crossover frequency being set too low for the rest of the speakers, and possibly the phase being out of time with the sound in the room. Make sure the crossover control is set to its highest setting, then let the amp's auto calibration do its stuff. Remember too to set all your speakers to Small before doing the mic auto set-up.

A better sub will dig deeper and go louder, but the integration with the main and surround speakers is a set-up thing.

IMO, changing the speakers won't transform your sound in a big enough way to justify the cost.
 
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Yeah changing like for like may be a sideways move, if they're in a crap position then high end speaker will still sound bad. Sort out placement first.once you've done that look into new speakers.

As for center I prefer and recommend larger designs, four driver type. Like Celestion a4c and kef reference model 200.
 
lucid said:
What you're describing sounds like the cossover frequency being set too low for the rest of the speakers, and possibly the phase being out of time with the sound in the room. Make sure the crossover control is set to its highest setting, then let the amp's auto calibration do its stuff. Remember too to set all your speakers to Small before doing the mic auto set-up.
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"What you're describing sounds like the crossover frequency being set too low for the rest of the speakers, and possibly the phase being out of time with the sound in the room. Make sure the crossover control is set to its highest setting," - Fascinating. Earlier today I looked at the crossover settings of my amp:-
Front 50hz : The 902s are rate 55hz
Center 100hz : The 304 is rated 100hz
Rears 60hz : The 302s are rated 100hz

I changed them to:-
Front 90hz
Center 100hz
Rears 100hz
And also turned the frequ. for the sub all the way up to max (150hz from probably set to around 120hz).

And I'd have to say immediately music sounded a lot tighter/cleaner. Basically almost exactly as per you comment just now :)
 
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lucid said:
The advice remains the same. Buy a better centre speaker. Buy a better sub. Then work on getting them set up right.
Click to expand...
A sub is a sub, but surely at the moment the "character" of the center MS 304 is very much in keeping with the MS 902 fronts and 302 rears? So changing just the center might undo that benefit?
 
NeilF said:
"What you're describing sounds like the crossover frequency being set too low for the rest of the speakers, and possibly the phase being out of time with the sound in the room. Make sure the crossover control is set to its highest setting," - Fascinating. Earlier today I looked at the crossover settings of my amp:-
Front 50hz : The 902s are rate 55hz
Center 100hz : The 304 is rated 100hz
Rears 60hz : The 302s are rated 100hz

I changed them to:-
Front 90hz
Center 100hz
Rears 100hz
And also turned the frequ. for the sub all the way up to max (150hz from probably set to around 120hz).

And I'd have to say immediately music sounded a lot tighter/cleaner. Basically almost exactly as per you comment just now :)
Click to expand...

Told ya.

It's set-up.

:D


What the main speakers are rated for in frequency range only tells you part of the story. What's missing is that the lowest frequencies quoted are often when the sound from that pair of speakers is already tailing off. Depending on how rapidly the sound diminishes, and how the manufacturer has decided to quote the figures, then 55Hz for the 902 speakers might be where the sound level is half of what it would be in the useful operating range of the speakers.

As a rough guide, the advice for setting crossovers when blending subs manually with stereo speakers is to start at 10Hz higher than the manufacturer's quoted lowest frequency; so, if we were using just a stereo amp, a pair of speakers and a sub, then we'd start with the sub crossover at 65Hz, then have a listen to check how it blends.

Since you're using an AV receiver, and they have the facility to control multiple crossover frequencies and to measure the in-room response via the mic, then our options open up a bit. We don't have to rely on the natural roll-off rate of the main speakers. We can impose our own frequency limit.

For example, you could decide to set the 902s at say 70Hz (or 80Hz, which is what THX recommends), then let the AV receiver work out the blend frequency limit for the sub on the front channel bass frequencies that will match.

For the surrounds, rated at 100Hz, you might try 120Hz. Maybe do the same for the centre speaker too.

Setting a slightly higher crossover point takes some of the heavy lifting away from the amp, and that in turn improves the amp's ability to deal with peaks in music and movie sound. Give it a whirl and see what you think.

You could also try blocking the 902 rear bass ports with some foam ( or a rolled up sock). This won't damage the speakers, but it will tighten up the bass response by removing the unwanted boost that's muddying the performance because the ported speakers are too close to the wall.
 
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NeilF said:
A sub is a sub, but surely at the moment the "character" of the center MS 304 is very much in keeping with the MS 902 fronts and 302 rears? So changing just the center might undo that benefit?
Click to expand...

Like I said in your other thread, MS makes more than one centre speaker. For the Avant range, the 304 centre was one choice. The 905c was the other.

Same manufacturer. Same voicing. Same tonal characteristics. Bigger speaker. Better sound.

Simples :D

So no, changing the centre to another one won't undo the benefit of voice matching. Well, not unless you were really stupid and bought a speaker from another manufacture. But that's not what I suggested in the previous thread or in this one, so why would you?
 
lucid said:
Like I said in your other thread, MS makes more than one centre speaker. For the Avant range, the 304 centre was one choice. The 905c was the other.

Same manufacturer. Same voicing. Same tonal characteristics. Bigger speaker. Better sound.

Simples :D

So no, changing the centre to another one won't undo the benefit of voice matching. Well, not unless you were really stupid and bought a speaker from another manufacture. But that's not what I suggested in the previous thread or in this one, so why would you?
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And as is the way with these things, the 905C is 2-3mm too high to fit into the space I have below my tv in the cabinet. :(
 
NeilF said:
And as is the way with these things, the 905C is 2-3mm too high to fit into the space I have below my tv in the cabinet. :(
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That's a bugger. No way to adjust the shelving to fit, I take it?

Well, now you know about MS voicing - which opens up the possibilities of other MS centre speakers past and present - and you're more clued up about blending the sub channel with the centre speaker, and you also know about blocking out the space for the centre speaker to improve the acoustic performance, then you've got enough to go on to play around with the gear you do have to get better performance from the existing centre. Failing that, you can look at well-reviewed alternative MS centres.
 
lucid said:
That's a bugger. No way to adjust the shelving to fit, I take it?

Well, now you know about MS voicing - which opens up the possibilities of other MS centre speakers past and present - and you're more clued up about blending the sub channel with the centre speaker, and you also know about blocking out the space for the centre speaker to improve the acoustic performance, then you've got enough to go on to play around with the gear you do have to get better performance from the existing centre. Failing that, you can look at well-reviewed alternative MS centres.
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No, can't adjust. It's a dedicated 500x162mm space under TV.

Almost tempting to buy a 905 and see if I can saw off 3mm from it's bottom. But I doubt the wood (mdf) would take it.
 
NeilF said:
No, can't adjust. It's a dedicated 500x162mm space under TV.

Almost tempting to buy a 905 and see if I can saw off 3mm from it's bottom. But I doubt the wood (mdf) would take it.
Click to expand...

Cutting it down was a thought that occurred to me, too.

I think that the cabinet would take it. If you were unsure, then take 2mm off the top and the bottom faces. Really though, unless you have a woodworking shop at home, or a mate with one, I do wonder what the final finish would be like. You'd need something like a thicknesses planer to make a really clean cut, but something able to take the height of the speaker. It would then need refinishing. It all sounds a bit expensive.
 
lucid said:
For example, you could decide to set the 902s at say 70Hz (or 80Hz, which is what THX recommends), then let the AV receiver work out the blend frequency limit for the sub on the front channel bass frequencies that will match.

For the surrounds, rated at 100Hz, you might try 120Hz. Maybe do the same for the centre speaker too.

Setting a slightly higher crossover point takes some of the heavy lifting away from the amp, and that in turn improves the amp's ability to deal with peaks in music and movie sound. Give it a whirl and see what you think.
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Well setting all the speakers to a crossover of 120hz seems the best to my ears music and film wise.

Guess that also makes it simple/consistent for amp too, rather than say having the L&R 902s at 80hz.
 
Problem with too high a setting it sounds tinny, or if I set my big floorstanders to that it's lacking on bass and upper bass. Not ideal for music. Plus my speakers are more bass capable than thx style so will be more bassy. And I find subs playinh upto 120hz too high up not great for music.

Of course if your speakers aren't capable of wider frequency response and your amp is a bit weedy you will have to make that compromise.


I've got mine set to 60 for mains. 80 center. 80 side. 60 rear. 60 sub.

Manual says set sub to lowest frequency that you have set any of the others to.

Now some bass management guides say set all to the same ie small 80hz but set sub to 120hz as lfe track can go upto 120hz, if you don't set to 120hz then frequencies between 80-120 on the lfe / speaker isn't redirected, it's actually discarded.

Not sure which is correct, maybe both are, depending on how your avr/av pre amp does the bass management.
 
Well have to say as Lucid suggests moving the cross over up just seems to return a bit of clarity to the speakers, as if not having to worry about those very low frequencies - parsing them off to sub - frees them for a bit more clarity.

Might be me imagining it of course :)
 
Your 902s are capable.of going lower, and doing so cleanly, but - and this is the important bit - not when stuffed up against a wall.

Most bass reflex speakers need some space around them to play cleanly and without the bass overhang that comes from having a ported speaker too close to the rear or side wall. This is why your speaker sounds cleaner with a crossover setting at 120Hz.

Do you remember when I said about bunging-up the bass reflex port with some rolled-up socks? I would strongly recommend giving that a whirl.
 
NeilF said:
Well have to say as Lucid suggests moving the cross over up just seems to return a bit of clarity to the speakers, as if not having to worry about those very low frequencies - parsing them off to sub - frees them for a bit more clarity.

Might be me imagining it of course :)
Click to expand...


Depends on multiple factors

Frequency range of the speakers
Location of the speakers
Power available to the speakers
Subwoofer quality

For example if your sub is a high end sealed design it will be better than your speakers. Vice versa also say you have a really cheap and nasty sub but high end floorstanders.

As for plugging in port that will effect efficiency also response of the speaker.

Svs has designs of sub where you can plug all ports but you must flick switch you sealed, I presume it must effect signal applying different eq or roll off, ie 24/12db /octave or something fancy.
 
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Just catching up with this thread.

The original question was whether it was worth changing from the hybrid system of MS Premiere with 902 front L&R to an all-Dali system. My original advice was no because it would be a sideways move. Some more info has come out about speaker placement and the inroom response, and then the improvements made by small tweaks to the set-up.

To recap on those changes: The sub/sat blend point has been fixed, and the speaker crossover settings now produce a cleaner sound. We know that a change to a bigger MS centre (the 905c) isn't possible due to a restriction with the shelf height on the equipment stand.

Still to try is the idea of bunging the bass port on the 902s.

IMO, the crossover for the surrounds is probably okay at 120Hz. It might be worth tweaking it down to 110Hz for the centre, if possble. There's slightly less chance of hearing the bottom-end registers of the male voice for the centre/sub channels via the sub at that level. If I'm honest though, 120Hz is too high for the front L&R speakers. My gut feeling is that it would be better to manage the bass response of the 902s with bunging and maybe decoupling from whatever they're sat on. Ideally though, they need to move away from the wall.

The natural question then is why not change to a system with smaller front speakers. Well, you already have that with the MS302 fronts. Try those back in place now that you better understand how to blend the sub. Changing the entire syustem to another brand in the hope of fixing a minor issue is a bit of an OTT response at this stage. I wouldn't rule out changing the system at some point in the future. But I think you have to do that to fix a wider range of issues so it's a more worthwhile upgrade.

The MS902i are really quite good speakers. You could prove this to yourself if you could borrow a set of speaker stands and do a listening test with them away from the back wall. Use a decent source (not a DVD/BD player as a CD player; they're mostly crap, especially via HDMI, unless it's a real high-end machine). If you have access to hi-res streaming from one of the subscription services that does it then that's another option. Set the amp to Pure Audio mode, and tweak any settings so that the 902i speakers are running full range with no help from the sub. Then.... listen. I think you'd be surprised at just how good they can sound given half a chance.
 
Right, some feedback...

I've now got crossover set as:-
Front (902): 80hz - Speaker rated at below 60hz
Center (304): 120 (Amp cannot set to 110) - Speaker rated at 100hz
Rear (302): 120 (Amp cannot set to 110) - Speaker rated at 100hz

That seems to give a nice "connected" sound.


I spent some time clicking the front (902s) between 80hz and 120hz crossover and bunging the rear port with some very tightly rolled up socks. There was a tiny difference, and while with the ports blocked the audio might have sounded a touch "tighter" at times, at others it sounded slight less "bass full", especially for films.

What sold me to do away with the socks in the end was turning the sub off and listening. Without the ports "socked" the 902s definately were a more rounded/full sound. So with so little difference generally, and with the sub off test being in favour of no socks, I settled for a 80hz crossover and put the socks back in my drawer :)

Just a shame the 902s are a touch too big for my shelf, but I can live with that if it means not wasting money on a sideways move.


As regards the center speaker (304) I'm looking for a larger 905i. But as that would be 2-3mm too high for the shelf under the TV, I'd need to cut it down to fit which I'm happy to attempt for a laugh. But this would mean first buying a second hand one, and then doing some "woodwork" on it to crop it down 4-5mm. Could prove a waste of the £70 it would end up costing.

So the risk would be buying a second hand 905 hoping it's still in good audio condition (well over ten years old!). Then risking chopping its case down and hoping that doesn't compromise it.
 
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