Upgrade Mordaunt Short Premiere 5.1 speakers to Dali Spektors? Worth it?

[lucid]

To get a real idea about port bunging, you need to run them bunged but with the amp set to full range. You may have done that, it's not clear from your post, but it's worth mentioning.

The next thing - if you haven't already tried it - is to isolate the speakers from the shelf.

Back when I first started buying Hi-Fi, one of my earliest Hi-Fi memories is a dealer doing this with some speakers when I was buying a turntable. This would be mid-80s. My mate and I sat in his dem room, he tried to explain what the benefits would be. We both thought he was crackers, messing around with little Meccano nuts to make a 3-point support. Nuts would have been the right word, but it worked. Bass tightened up once the speaker was nolonger energising the speaker stand so much. The midrange was a bit better too.

The same principle applies to most things a speaker sits on. Some of that energy gets transferred, and depending on the way it moves then the thing the speakers are sitting on vibrates in sympathy. Since all sound from speakers is the sound of something vibrating (the cones, the cabinets, and what they're sitting on) then the more that energy can be ported away without exciting other items in the room then the tighter the speakers will sound.

If you have some small nuts to use - the metal variety, not the tree fruit - then give it a whirl with those. You could also try small coins. 5p pieces if you can rustle up 6 in your change.

 

[NeilF]

To get a real idea about port bunging, you need to run them bunged but with the amp set to full range. You may have done that, it's not clear from your post, but it's worth mentioning.

The next thing - if you haven't already tried it - is to isolate the speakers from the shelf.

Back when I first started buying Hi-Fi, one of my earliest Hi-Fi memories is a dealer doing this with some speakers when I was buying a turntable. This would be mid-80s. My mate and I sat in his dem room, he tried to explain what the benefits would be. We both thought he was crackers, messing around with little Meccano nuts to make a 3-point support. Nuts would have been the right word, but it worked. Bass tightened up once the speaker was nolonger energising the speaker stand so much. The midrange was a bit better too.

The same principle applies to most things a speaker sits on. Some of that energy gets transferred, and depending on the way it moves then the thing the speakers are sitting on vibrates in sympathy. Since all sound from speakers is the sound of something vibrating (the cones, the cabinets, and what they're sitting on) then the more that energy can be ported away without exciting other items in the room then the tighter the speakers will sound.

If you have some small nuts to use - the metal variety, not the tree fruit - then give it a whirl with those. You could also try small coins. 5p pieces if you can rustle up 6 in your change.

Well I was trying the speakers at 80hz crossover and 120hz crossover. With and without "socks". Without "socks" at 80hz, the speakers seemed to be the best overall effect. Especially noticable testing with sub turned off.

 

[lucid]

Well I was trying the speakers at 80hz crossover and 120hz crossover. With and without "socks". Without "socks" at 80hz, the speakers seemed to be the best overall effect. Especially noticable testing with sub turned off.

Right, so in all scenarios you're still artificially limiting the bass output to the speakers via the amp's speaker set-up menu.

What I've suggested you try is something different to that.

On the amp, you want the speakers set to Large. You want No sub. (Not just switched off... Literally NO subwoofer set up in the system... as if it doesn't exist.) Then you want the amp on Pure Audio mode so that it's not using any processing. Now try with and without socks.

You might be able to acheive some of this bypassing of the sub and crossover settings with Pure Audio mode, but I'll leave that for you to investigate in the Onkyo manual. The point is to give the speakers a full range stereo audio signal, as clean as it can be, then listen with the ports open then bunged so you're hearing the speakers' natural response in both circumstances.

 

[hornetstinger]

Well I was trying the speakers at 80hz crossover and 120hz crossover. With and without "socks". Without "socks" at 80hz, the speakers seemed to be the best overall effect. Especially noticable testing with sub turned off.

Probably just notice more prounced bass of ported speakers

I've had sealed speakers and they're very good, lacking in bass but are better as lower group delay.

Try pair of NHT speakers they design only sealed designs.

I prefer sealed box centers for this reason, both of my large four driver design are sealed

 

[NeilF]

Right, so in all scenarios you're still artificially limiting the.bass output to.the speakers via the amp's speaker set-up menu.

What I've suggested you try is something different to that.

On the amp, you want the speakers set to Large. You want No sub. (Not just switched off... Literally NO subwoofer set up in the system... as if it doesn't exist.) Then you want the.amp on Pure Audio mode so that it's not using any processing. Now try with and without socks.

Ok will do but There is no speaker size setting on my amp. I assume just set crossover down to 60hz which about the speakers limit.

 

[lucid]

Ok will do but There is no speaker size setting on my amp. I assume just set crossover down to 60hz which about the speakers limit.

Oh dear God! I've gone to extraordinary length to explain that you want the amp doing no crossover stuff; and your reply "So I set the crossover to 60Hz" Really? [Facepalm moment ]

Why the hell do I bother?

FFS man, read the bloody manual and set your speakers to FULL BAND.

 

[lucid]

Probably just notice more prounced bass of ported speakers

I've had sealed speakers and they're very good, lacking in bass but are better as lower group delay.

Try pair of NHT speakers they design only sealed designs.

I prefer sealed box centers for this reason, both of my large four driver design are sealed

Where are the UK dealers for NHT speakers? Is there a list?

 

[hornetstinger]

Not sure of current importers my local shop was one, they had superzeo and 1.5 in. Nice speakers

Own a pair of Nht hdp-2

 

[lucid]

I recall a pair of the floorstanders with the built-in subs being in my local Hi-fi dealer's place maybe 10 years ago; could be longer. Never got to hear them though which is a shame.

So hard for speakers from other countries to break in to the UK market. There's a lot of world-class homegrown talent here and long-established brands.

Whenever the US mags get to review British speakers making headway in the States the reviews are usually very complimentary. We do need speakers like the NHTs though to shake things up a little. UK and European makers have got very good at small bass reflex speakers, but I think there's room for a return to infinite baffle speakers as room sizes and lifestyles dictate that speaker need to live closer to walls.

 

[NeilF]

Oh dear God! I've gone to extraordinary length to explain that you want the amp doing no crossover stuff; and your reply "So I set the crossover to 60Hz" Really? [Facepalm moment ]

Why the hell do I bother?

FFS man, read the bloody manual and set your speakers to FULL BAND.

...your extraordinary lengths might make sense in your head, but when you talk about setting speaker sizes, which I have no setting for, it's not so clear. [Facepalm moment ]

I'll do the test as you suggested when I have a min... (ie: Using "Pure" and trying to ensure no crossover etc)

 

[lucid]

...your extraordinary lengths might make sense in your head, but when you talk about setting speaker sizes, which I have no setting for, it's not so clear. [Facepalm moment ]

I'll do the test as you suggested when I have a min... (ie: Using "Pure" and trying to ensure no crossover etc)

That's why I said read the manual. it's covered in the manual. Take a little time to understand how to operate the gear that your hard earned money paid for. It will pay you back in dividends.

 

[hornetstinger]

I recall a pair of the floorstanders with the built-in subs being in my local Hi-fi dealer's place maybe 10 years ago; could be longer. Never got to hear them though which is a shame.

So hard for speakers from other countries to break in to the UK market. There's a lot of world-class homegrown talent here and long-established brands.

Whenever the US mags get to review British speakers making headway in the States the reviews are usually very complimentary. We do need speakers like the NHTs though to shake things up a little. UK and European makers have got very good at small bass reflex speakers, but I think there's room for a return to infinite baffle speakers as room sizes and lifestyles dictate that speaker need to live closer to walls.

Issue is with sealed speakers quite inefficient. Low sensitivity, and my Nht needed far more than you'd think just being surround speakers. Had 100w power amps into them compared to the 50w I had to the far more efficint definitive technology bp2x

 

[NeilF]

That's why I said read the manual. it's covered in the manual. Take a little time to understand how to operate the gear that your hard earned money paid for. It will pay you back in dividends.

Yeh, the manual really isn't very clear on "Pure Audio". Clearly the notion behind it is to remove as much processing as possible, so I'll have to have a play. ie: What this means to stereo or 5.1 feeds. I recall it seems to suck the living daylights out of music at least as regards bass, so that does implies stereo in "Pure Audio" literally just feeds to L&R. But a 5.1 source? Surely the sub would still be active, but then crossovers?

I'll have a play...

 

[lucid]

Pure Audio should give you the least amount of audio and video processing that's possible with the particular amp. How that is implemented though varies from manufacturer to manufacturer, and even model to model within certain manufacturer's ranges.

The basic idea is common to all; it's the least amount of processing. For some brands such as Yamaha, in some of their midrange AV-amps and -receivers, it means only the stereo analogue inputs work and the basic DAC for optical and coax work. HDMI inputs get disabled. All surround decoding and processing is switched off. The tone controls are bypassed. The sub out is disabled. The mains front L&R channel speaker connections go to full range. The rest of the speaker outputs (inc sub) go dark. Even the front panel display and HDMI output get switched off. It turns the AV-amp into something as close to a stereo amp with 2ch DAC as it can be. I've used AV-pre-amp processors where Pure means that only analogue inputs work, so you have analogue source selection and volume; that's it.

However your Onkyo does it, for the stuff that it still leaves active, you'll need to change the settings so that the amp isn't interfering with the pure stereo signal going to the front L&R speakers. What you're after is to hear the speakers as if they're connected to a simple stereo Hi-Fi amp. Only then will you be able to really tell what happens between port open and port bunged.

For Speakers: Large/Full Range, see what happens when next you all the way down through the Front L&R crossover settings 120>....100>....80>....60>.... and so on and so on.

 

[NeilF]

Pure Audio should give you the least amount of audio and video processing that's possible with the particular amp. How that is implemented though varies from manufacturer to manufacturer, and even model to model within certain manufacturer's ranges.

The basic idea is common to all; it's the least amount of processing. For some brands such as Yamaha, in some of their midrange AV-amps and -receivers, it means only the stereo analogue inputs work and the basic DAC for optical and coax work. HDMI inputs get disabled. All surround decoding and processing is switched off. The tone controls are bypassed. The sub out is disabled. The mains front L&R channel speaker connections go to full range. The rest of the speaker outputs (inc sub) go dark. Even the front panel display and HDMI output get switched off. It turns the AV-amp into something as close to a stereo amp with 2ch DAC as it can be. I've used AV-pre-amp processors where Pure means that only analogue inputs work, so you have analogue source selection and volume; that's it.

However your Onkyo does it, for the stuff that it still leaves active, you'll need to change the settings so that the amp isn't interfering with the pure stereo signal going to the front L&R speakers. What you're after is to hear the speakers as if they're connected to a simple stereo Hi-Fi amp. Only then will you be able to really tell what happens between port open and port bunged.

For Speakers: Large/Full Range, see what happens when next you all the way down through the Front L&R crossover settings 120>....100>....80>....60>.... and so on and so on.

OK... Thanks for the (continued) help... I'll have a play

 

[NeilF]

OK... A few more observations...

In PURE AUDIO (PA), both in music and film (5.1), blocking the L&R ports (tightly rolled socks) cost bass that otherwise sounded nice. Returning out of PA, and playing around with the front crossover between "full" and upto 120hz (with/without sub), I thought around 80hz gave the best clarity in bass and treble.

The center and rears I flicked between 100hz (their supposed limit) and 120hz, and settled back on 120hz.


One thing I did notice while listening to the opening scene of Blade Runner 2049 in PA, while a bit of the bass seemed to be reduced (I assume because of no crossover), a bit of "magical twinkle" in the higher pitches seemed to be missing/less clear. I could click back in/out of PA and in PA the high pitched synths just had a tad more magic/clarity. It was odd! So I played around with the speaker distrances, which previously were:-
Center: 2.49m
All others: 2.7m
And set them all to 2.7m, and voila, non-PA sounded the same as PA (as regard that high pitch clarity).

Very odd! But I flicked between the center being the same distance as all the other speakers, and the short distance, and there was definately a difference!

Figuring the distance is all but pointless (as for most of what I watch we're talking ARC from TV to AMP) I set all distance to the min distance (0.03m), and it continued to sounds the same (better).

 

[hornetstinger]

Leave distances alone

 

[NeilF]

Leave distances alone

As I said there was a distinct bit of clarity in Pure Audio in the higher frequencies (in a 5.1 stream), and I deduced the only setting that PA could be affecting for that difference was applying speaker distance or not. And indeed playing around with the center speaker distance from 2.49 to 2.7m I'm certain made no-PA sound like PA.

Given that, so now all speakers were 2.7m, what's the difference between 2.7m and 0.03m (the minimum) given virtually everything I watch is TV -> ARC -> AMP?

What am I missing?

ps: I've always found speaker distances a bit of an odd notion, given you can sit in a dozen places in a room, and speaker distance will be difference for each. ie: So any defined for the amp are nothing more than a best average.

 

[goonerfromlag]

Any chance of raising the tv height with a stand so that a 905 centre speaker can sit out in the open?

 

[NeilF]

Any chance of raising the tv height with a stand so that a 905 centre speaker can sit out in the open?

Physically? Yes. Esthetically? No

Really wouldn't be my ideal solution...

I contacted a couple of local wood work related companies to see if they would have a large lathe or sander that could easily take off 3-4mm from the bottom of a 905 case, but not heard back. Suspect CV19 isn't helping!