UPS replacement

AtaRo said:
Also as the lighting travels along the power lines this is where lightning arrester and surge diverter in the power lines comes in, its not like when the lightining hits point A and travels along to point B it will still have the same amount of power when it reaches Point B, some of it will be reduced/absorb by the lightning arrester and surge diverter ...
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Surges are current sources. That means voltage only increases when someone foolishly tries to stop that current.

Same current exists everywhere in the path from cloud to earth. If a 1000 amp surge is incoming to the surge protector, then the same 1000 amp surge current is simultaneously outgoing on the appliance side.

How much energy is absorbed? Energy is defined by current and voltage. If the current is not restricted, then no voltage exists. No energy dissipates. Effective protectors never stop or absorb destructive surges.

Typically destructive surges are hundreds of thousands of joules. How does that silly few hundreds joules inside a power strip make any reduction in energy? It doesn't. Any protector that tried to protect by absorbing only increases destructive energy inside the house. Either that energy is absorbed harmlessly in earth (the effective protector system). Or no effective protection exist. That protector that works by absorbing a surge has a nasty history of even creating house fires. Its few hundred joules will absorb hundreds of thousands of joules. Of course not. A protector on a desk with papers, on the rug, or behind furniture is better called a fire threat.

At what point do numbers make a scam obvious? Or make a fire threat obvious? Why promote protection that plug-in protector manufacturers (ie Belkin) do not even claim?

Effective protection from direct lightning strikes typically costs $1 per protected appliance. Why spend tens or 100 times more money for a scam? Learn what made direct lightning strikes irrelevant even 100 years ago?

If a surge current is incoming on one wire, then same current is also outgoing on the other side (ie via the appliance). Massive and destructive energy exists if one tries to stop or absorb that energy.

Worse, plug-in protectors typically disconnect as fast as possible. Leave an appliance to protect itself. That failure (also called near zero protection) promotes sales. Grossly undersizing a power strip promotes sales - not protection. Protection is always about where hundreds of thousands of joules dissipate.
 
During a thunderstoms the house electric voltage goes up and down, so its not necessary the lightning that kills stuff, its your own power supply that does the damage during thunderstorms, and we all know that most appliances in your home will stand a bit of a battering in a storm, but a computer wont take meny surges and the changing of the voltage. Its like a few yrs back when my pc was killed during the storm, it never killed anything else in the house and that just proves how sensitive pc's are and they cant take much of a battering with the power supply..

So Im guessing with a ups/surge protectors your pc can withstand more of a battering before the pc gives up the ghost
 
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Phil2008 said:
During a thunderstoms the house electric voltage goes up and down, so its not necessary the lightning that kills stuff, its your own power supply that does the damage during thunderstorms, and we all know that most appliances in your home will stand a bit of a battering in a storm, but a computer wont take meny surges and the changing of the voltage.
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Correct. Voltages change. And then we (who actually design this stuff) put numbers to it. First, how much does voltage change? All electronics must work 100% normal even when incandescent bulbs dim to 50% intensity. How often do your lights dim that much?

A voltage change that causes bulbs to dim to 50% is harmful to motorized appliances - ie refrigerator, furnace, air conditioner. And is perfectly ideal and normal voltage to all electronics.

DC output voltages from electronic power supplies must remain rock solid and unchanged when lights dim to 50%. Must even remain unchanged when a UPS outputs no power during the AC mains to battery power switchover. Resilience is required by standards. And was true of electronics even before the original IBM PC.

And finally, what happens when voltages dim well below 40%? A computer simply powers off. No damage. No electronics is damaged by low voltage. Wild speculation often promotes damage from low voltage. Does not happen. Just another of so many functions required to be and accomplished by every power supply. A reality that contradicts what a majority are told by myths.

How high must voltage be without damage? 1970 design standards required spikes up to 600 volts without damage. Today's standards require thousands of volts without damage. But again numbers. Let's take one example. A driver IC that interfaces the outside world with internal electronics. Standards now require these devices to withstand up to 2000 and 15,000 volts without damage. To have these numbers, you must first read datasheets. A datasheet for one computer semiconductor that says on page one, "+-15kV":
http://datasheets.maxim-ic.com/en/ds/MAX1487E-MAX491E.pdf

Please provide numbers when making claims. That means citing the manufacturer spec, international design standards, datasheets (see above paragraph as example), or other publically available facts. Damage from voltage change is a very popular myth among so many who do not do this stuff. Who only recite what others have told them to believe. Hearsay is how junk science gets created and disseminated.

Routine is to have direct lightning strikes without damage. Protection already inside electronic supplies is superb. But a rare and destructive surge (ie once every seven years) can overwhelm that protection. Therefore facilities that can never have damage earth a ‘whole house’ protector. Do not waste money with plug-in protectors. COs suffer maybe 100 surges with each thunderstorm. And no damage. Direct lightning strikes without damage is routine. But only if one first learns what is required to have such protection at about £1 per protected appliance.

Ironically, most failures are due to manufacturing defects. Surges are blamed by many who need a bogeyman rather than first demand facts with numbers.
 
A pc doesn't take much upset from a abnormal power source,but Im guessing pc power supplies are better then they were when my pc died about 6 yrs ago. But Im guessing pc's still are not as robust as you tv or refrigerator are.

So my question is... if a ups or surge protector is infront your pc, will your pc be as robust as your everyday household appliances during a storm are??
 
Phil2008 said:
A pc doesn't take much upset from a abnormal power source,but Im guessing pc power supplies are better then they were when my pc died about 6 yrs ago.

But Im guessing pc's still are not as robust as you tv or refrigerator are.
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Appreciate a problem traceable to the market. No PSU manufacturer must meet a long list of required functions. Functions standard even before an IBM PC existed. Only a computer assembler is responsible for providing those functions. Some supplies are 'accidentally' missing required functions. Then when a supply fails, spin can blame AC power rather than the computer assembler responsible for that failure.

Provided were numbers that said why computers and other electronics are more robust than refrigerators. A TV must work even when light bulbs dim to 50%. Computers must work ideal (even start up) when that same bulb dims to 40%. Another example of how robust electronics must be.

Put an AM radio adjacent to any computer power supply. Does that radio detect interference? Then a computer (maybe its supply) is defective. Some supplies are even missing that function to sell for higher profits and less price to computer assemblers.

Does a PSU conform to UL or FCC requirements? Only the assembler must meet those requirements. How many failures are directly traceable to computer assemblers who do not even know how electricity works? Who do not even know the long list of functions performed inside every supply?

What does a UPS do? Connects a computer directly to AC mains when not in battery backup mode. Where does a UPS do something between a computer and AC mains? Where is any protection? Plug-in UPS does not claim to protect the computer. Anything a more expensive UPS might do must already be inside a computer's PSU. How many computer assemblers know that?

What is some of the 'dirtiest' power seen by appliances? Created by a UPS in battery backup mode. That UPS can output power so 'dirty' as to be potentially harmful to power strip protectors and small electric motors. That same 'dirtiest' power is also ideal perfect for all electronics – including the 1981 IBM PC. Electronics were long ago required to be more robust.

Posted were facts with numbers. Ie. standard is to withstand up to 2000 and 15,000 volts without damage. Required by standards such as IEC 61000-4-2. How many computer assemblers know any of this. A datasheet from one semiconductor manufacturers says on page one, "+-15kV":
http://datasheets.maxim-ic.com/en/ds/MAX1487E-MAX491E.pdf

If you disagree, then please post hard facts and numbers. If you know a computer or TV is not so robust, then provide the reason why.

A UPS that can harm power strip protectors and small electric motors is also ideal perfect power to all electronics. Electronics are so robust as to not be harmed even by a ‘dirtiest’ UPS in battery backup mode.

Unfortunately, many inferior supplies exist when computer assemblers do not even know what only they are responsible for. Many functions required in all power supplies so that all electronics are that robust.

BTW, what can also compromise electronic internal protection? A power strip protector located too close to that computer.
 
I dont know how bad the storm was tonight, as I was out, in town but it looked quite bad from out of the bar/pub window , and my pc is still alive and kicking,,,,, yay :)
 
I running the batts right down with a lamp,, so hopefully if I do catch the case on the top board, the UPS might survive. But I will disconnect the batts as soon as I can see the leads.

But with trying to run the batts down with a lamp its constantly making its low batt beeping sound, driving me mad..... ahhhhhhhhh Its just died peace and quiet at last, but the bulb was still bright when UPS died, so that idea might not work.
 
My UPS looking sorry for its self waiting for the new batts.
Im amazed how heavy it still is, without the batts installed.

dscf1188ou.jpg
 
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Recieved the batts today, will put them in tomorrow.. It has a date on the box says 02.06.2011, so Im guessing thats when the suppliers got them?

The old batt specs........
image2jd.jpg


The new batt specs...........
image4fxm.jpg


The new batts has a higher "Ah", so does this mean they have a higher storage capacity, so they will last a bit longer before running out of juice?
 
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Well Ive just installed the new batts, put it all back together and all went well. But when I connected it to the mains, Im greeted with a solid red light, that means...........

image2ph.jpg


So just hope it means the batts are just weak, as theres no beeping and after a few hrs or a reset, the light will go out. But I will leave it charging till at least 12 tonight before messing or connecting things back up.

So cross fingers and toes, that it will work:mad:
 
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Well Ive just connected usb cable up,, and everything looks fine. Its even saying its fully charged and I think it might be as the ups was warm but now its cold.

unledmah.jpg
 
UPS back in service once more, I gave it 4hr recharging time as the batt was reporting fully charged within a hr. I ran the test and it passed, and no more red light.

The ups is only 23% loaded with all my stuff, so the UPS will be cope with a few more pc upgrades/builds yet, before it gets overloaded.:p

unled2kq.jpg
 
I have killed the mains power today, to see how long UPS run off batt power, and it last about 25mins untill the low batt beeping starts, thats 25% of batt power left.

I think thats good cos when I had my ati 3870 card and a 19"lcd, it was lasting about 20 - 25mins aswel,, but now I have upgraded to a ati 6950 and a 28" lcd and its lasting for the same amount of time.:cool:

Thanks guys for all your help, much appreciated.;)
 
Hey I was just thinking, is it poss to buy 1 big 24v batt that would make the ups last a lot longer on batt mode, and have the batt outside the ups, with a easy plug in connector?

Just a thought:confused:
 
Phil2008 said:
Hey I was just thinking, is it poss to buy 1 big 24v batt that would make the ups last a lot longer on batt mode, and have the batt outside the ups, with a easy plug in connector?

Just a thought:confused:
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In theory you can use bigger batteries to entend the runtime.

The difficult part is that you'd need to ensure that the battery charging part of the UPS is compatible with the chosen batteries.
 
Ive been browsing the net to find out why UPSes have a much lower joule rating then on surge protectors. Apparently its because a "line interactive" UPS like mine has AVR technology, so it doesn't need a huge joule rating. Then I started browsing about the response rate of the AVR and I think mine might be 200ms but Im not sure. If thats correct it sounds a tad slow, but apparently a surge isnt instant, so by the time the surge gets to destructive level, the UPS should have killed the surge or flicked over to batt power

A "line interactive" is the middle of the range UPS like mine that only uses the inverter when is needed, for surges/AVR or power loss. But you can get a online UPS that always using the inverter so no change over from AC to DC as its always in DC, so Im guessing these are safer cos if the UPS fails to stop a surge, the inverter will deal with it?? But the downside to the online UPSes, is that they use more of your electricity, more things to go wrong and cost more as the inverter has to be higher qual, as it need to use a Sine Wave output.
 
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