UPS

NathanE said:
Belkin sells power strips with a £50,000 guarantee that no connected equipment will suffer surge damage. Go figure.
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General Motors is promoting the industry's best warranty. That proves GM is superior to Toyota, Honda, and Hyundai - according to you reason. The reason GM has the best warranty is inferior products. And a warranty designed to not be honored.

Did you read the fine print in the Belkin? Why not. That warranty is so chock full of exemptions as to not be honored. Why did you read the advertising. Not read the specs in that warranty?

Or you could learn what so many others learned the hard way. tamaradensh in aus.computers on 12 Jul 2008 at:
> I had it plugged into a Belkin Surge Protector. They have a connected equipment
> guarentee. I put in the claim and was told that it only covered equipment for power
> surges as the products wasn't designed to protect from other power malfunctions.

The surge was simply relabeled 'another power malfunction’. No warranty.

Or Newsman in "SONY TiVo SVR-2000"
> I got a Belkin surge protector with phone line protection soley for Tivo purposes.
> Yet my Tivo's modem still failed. And the '$20,000 connected devices warranty' did
> not help me. I jumped through many hoops, including finding the original recept for the
> surge protector (just under a year old) and I sent my surge protector to Belkin (paid for
> shipping), and was denied my warranty. They gave me a ton of crap, ... Eventually
> it boiled down to a line in the warranty that said "Belkin at it's sole discretion can
> reject any claim for any reason".

Protectors work by diverting hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly to earth. That means the always require 'less than 3 meter' connection to earth. The UPS does not have it. Please don't waste time calling a safety ground (wall receptacle) ground as earth ground. It is not. Wire has too many splices, too many sharp bends. Excessive impedance. Is bundled with other wires (ie hot and neutral). The UPS does not discuss earth ground because it does not have it. Does not claim to divert a surge anywhere.

Any MOV that fails by sacrificing itself was a scam. No MOVs must even fail that say. MOV manufacturer datasheet are blunt about this. An MOV that fails by sacrificing itself did zero protection. And sometimes creates house fires:
http://www.hanford.gov/rl/?page=556&parent=554
http://www.ddxg.net/old/surge_protectors.htm
http://www.zerosurge.com/HTML/movs.html
http://*******.com/3x73ol entitled "Surge Protector Fires"
http://www3.cw56.com/news/articles/local/BO63312/
http://www.nmsu.edu/~safety/news/lesson-learned/surgeprotectorfire.htm
http://www.pennsburgfireco.com/fullstory.php?58339


And finally read what Belkin claims. It does not claim to divert energy harmlessly to earth. Belkin says their protectors "Absorb excess electricity acrosslive, neutral, and earth lines,preventing harm to your equipment."
http://www.belkin.com/sg/pressroom/brochures/uploads/sg/Your Guide to Surge Protection.pdf
In the real world, no effective protector does that.

As is standard in any facility that must never have surge damage (and does not waste money on the Belkin or APC), the protector is located and connected within meters of single point earth ground.

What do scam protectors not discuss? Single point earth ground - where hundreds of thousands of joules dissipate. No protector works by absorbing the surge. But that is the popular myth that even promotes a plug-in UPS for surge protection. These myths are popular - and easy to promote.

Now go look at those scary pictures - a problem with protectors that work by failing.
 
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I can't help but notice all your links are from America. Everyone knows their electrical standards suck. People are probably plugging in their cheapo WalMart surge protector to a non-grounded wall socket...

Over here the RCD circuit breaker would trip out before anything remotely resembling a fire took hold.
 
NathanE said:
and yes, they DO have UPS's, in EVERY exchange - that's why your phoneline still works during a power outage.
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A serious UPS used by BT is located at the service entrance. Is not the ineffective device sold by APC. The only thing those two devices have in common is providing temporary electricity. And neither does surge protection.

APC has no earth ground and near zero MOVs. Meanwhile BT's UPS is protected by the same soluton that has been standard for over 100 years - a proetctor connected within meters to single point earth ground. BT's UPS does not do surge protection. It is protected by the only protection what is installed where ever damage cannot happen.

The BT UPS (like the APC) provides temporary power during a blackout. The difference. BT's UPS is expensive - provides clean power. The APC outputs power typically so dirty as to be harmful to small electric motors and power strip protectors. That same 'dirty' power is also ideal for all electronics. Electronics are required to have internal protection so good that even a 'dirty' UPS is perfectly ideal power. Protection required to be inside electronics makes spikes and harmonics from an APC UPS (in battery backup mode) irrelevant. APC is made as cheap as possible.

Responsible companies do not waste money on a plug-in UPS for surge protection. But again, how does its hundred joules stop surges that are hundreds of thousands of joules? Why does everyone avoid questions that deal in numbers and reality? Where is specifications that claims surge protection? Why so many posts devoid of any numbers? Because so many are posting myths to avoid a hard fact. They have been scammed by advertising myths. That plug-in UPS does not have and does not claim effective surge protection. Why no numbers after so many posts? Because it's near zero protection is for a feeling - as if 210 joules will magically make a destructive surge disappear.

Nobody can post a protetion number that does not exist.
 
NathanE said:
Over here the RCD circuit breaker would trip out before anything remotely resembling a fire took hold.
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Apparently you have no idea what an RCD does. Destructive surges thousands of amps. And are done in microseconds. How does your RCD that takes tens of milliseconds to trip (often slower) stop a surge that is done in microseconds?

The millimeter open contacts in you RCD will stop what even kilometers of sky could not? Again, you need to put numbers to your conclusions. How does that millimeter gap in an RCD - that takes over 1000 times too long to open - how does that millimeter gap stop a surge? It doesn't

What happens if the RCD opens during a surge? Read its spec numbers. It's maybe 10,000 volt rating means it remains conducting even after the contacts open. Arcing across the contacts means your RCD cannot interrupt such currents.

You are inventing myths to defend myth protectors. You were scammed by plug-in protectors. You believed advertising lies because you ignored spec numbers. Rather than admit to having been scammed, you are now inventing more myths.

Now RCD stops a surge. A surge will even blow through anything that tries to stop it. The only solution to surges - even 100 years ago - is to earth that energy before it can enter the building. No myths avert that reality. Protection everywhere (ie all BT facilities) is about protectors connected short to single point earth ground. Single point earth ground - where hundreds of joules dissipate harmlessly. So that protection already inside every appliance is not overwhelmed.

The UPS has only one functions - provide temporary and dirty power during a blackout.

BTW, a UPS battery lasted ten years? That is phenomenal for a plug-in UPS. What kind of (lead acid) battery? What brand UPS?
 
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westom said:
Apparently you have no idea what an RCD does. Destructive surges thousands of amps. And are done in microseconds. How does your RCD that takes tens of milliseconds to trip (often slower) stop a surge that is done in microseconds?

The millimeter open contacts in you RCD will stop what even kilometers of sky could not? Again, you need to put numbers to your conclusions. How does that millimeter gap in an RCD - that takes over 1000 times too long to open - how does that millimeter gap stop a surge? It doesn't

What happens if the RCD opens during a surge? Read its spec numbers. It's maybe 10,000 volt rating means it remains conducting even after the contacts open. Arcing across the contacts means your RCD cannot interrupt such currents.

You are inventing myths to defend myth protectors. You were scammed by plug-in protectors. You believed advertising lies because you ignored spec numbers. Rather than admit to having been scammed, you are now inventing more myths.

Now RCD stops a surge. A surge will even blow through anything that tries to stop it. The only solution to surges - even 100 years ago - is to earth that energy before it can enter the building. No myths avert that reality. Protection everywhere (ie all BT facilities) is about protectors connected short to single point earth ground. Single point earth ground - where hundreds of joules dissipate harmlessly. So that protection already inside every appliance is not overwhelmed.

The UPS has only one functions - provide temporary and dirty power during a blackout.

BTW, a UPS battery lasted ten years? That is phenomenal for a plug-in UPS. What kind of (lead acid) battery? What brand UPS?
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Now you're putting words in my mouth. I never said an RCD is good for stopping surges. I merely said that over here those "house fires" caused by cheapo surge power strips wouldn't happen because the RCD breaker would trip out the very moment something started going wrong.

My UPS is an APC Back-UPS 650. It's 10 years old, still going strong. I only replaced the battery a couple months ago.

I don't know why you seem to have beef with APC. They've done nothing wrong. And I would bet money on it that BT use APC UPS's - albeit of the much higher-end and rackmountable type. They state quite clearly that my UPS has 300 joules of 'protection'. I'm sure some of their more modern UPS's far exceed that, considering mine is from their product range of 10 years ago.
 
NathanE said:
Now you're putting words in my mouth. I never said an RCD is good for stopping surges. I merely said that over here those "house fires" caused by cheapo surge power strips wouldn't happen because the RCD breaker would trip out the very moment something started going wrong.
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Those potential house fires are created by a surge in any power strip protector. Especially when the protector is designed to 'sacrifice itself to protect an appliance'. To avert that fire threat, your RCD had to stop the surge. Only other solution is to not use an ineffective plug-in protector. To instead spend less money for a solution that has been used everywhere for 100 years.

You said the RCD is to avert protector fires. To do that, it can only do one thing - stop the surge. Stop energy from dissipating inside the protector. Why do power strip protectors fail? Failure promotes sales. How to get so many to recommend an ineffective protector? A surge too small to overwhelm protection inside appliances creates a protector failure. Appliance protected itself. Ineffective protector failed, in part, to promote sales.

Sometimes the expensive plug-in protector does not disconnect fast enough. Therefore those above scary pictures result.

No RCD will avert that unacceptable failure. That failure is because a protector adjacent to the appliance absorbs a surge - energy from hundreds of thousands of joules.

Effective solutions are routinely installed within meters of single point earth ground. Every centimeter shorter is important. Protector must remain functional even after a direct lightning strike. How much is the effective protector? About £1 per protected appliance. Either learn from retail advertising and spend tens of times more. Or learn what has been routine for over 100 years wherever surge damage must never happen - including munitions dumps.

Where are spec numbers that claim protection from a typically destructive surge? Not found in a UPS or that power strip protector. Informed consumers spend many times less money to have protection from every type of surge. Which protectors do that? Same ones where we discuss another critical fact - single point earth ground.

Where does the UPS (and those who recommend it) discuss any of this? It doesn't. So we view the UPS specs. It does not even claim protection from typically destructive surges. It only claims near zero protection. Just enough for retail advertising to hype it as 100% surge protection.

I have no beef with APC. They are only selling a UPS - temporary and dirty power during a blackout. It does not do all the things that APC, et al would have others claim. APC says right there in numbers - near zero surge protection. Those joules could not be tinier. APC simply lets rumor, lies, junk science, and hearsay promote mythical protection. It does not surge protection. APC does not even claim surge protection from the typically destructive surge.

How to identify any ineffective surge protector. 1) It has no dedicated wire for the always short (ie 'less than 3 meter') connection to single point earth ground. 2) Manufacturer will not discuss the *only* thing that does protection - single point earth ground. Nothing new. Generations before the IBM PC even existed, this was well know and repeatedly proven everywhere in the world. It says how easily so many people will believe an urban myth rather than learn facts.


What kind of lead acid battery was in that UPS for ten years? What manufacturer of the UPS?
 
FireShadow said:
Unless westom knows of something better that won't catch fire etc.
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I keep referring to the solution. Facilities that must never have damage do not locate protectors adjacent to the appliance.

Maybe we should start with the basics. A destructive surge seeks earth ground. Instead of striking earth, lightning took an electrically shorter path through Franklin's wooden church steeple. Yes, even wood is an electrical conductor. But not a great conductor. So a direct lightning strike (20,000 amps) creates a high voltage in wood. 20,000 amps times a high voltage is high energy. Energy dissipates in and destroys the church steeple.

Did Franklin try to stop a surge? Of course not. Protection (even for today's electronics) is always about connecting a surge to earth. Franklin installed a lightning rod. Does the lightning rod provide protection? Of course not. A lightning rod (what everyone sees) simply connects that surge on a conductive path to earth. 20,000 amps on a wire is low voltage. 20,000 amps times low voltage is low energy. No damage.

What provides the protection? What a lightning rod connects to. What everyone forgets because they do not see it; because it is not a magic box. Protection is provided by the earthing electrode system. Where energy harmlessly dissipates.

That is what all effective surge protection does. Never stops, blocks, or absorbs a surge. That cannot happen. Effective protectors do not do any surge protection. A protector (like the lightning rod) is only a connecting device to the only thing that does surge protection. Single point earth ground.

Either that protector connects energy harmlessly into earth. Or that energy must hunt for earth destructively inside the building. Only a homeowner makes that choice. Where did hundreds of thousands of joules dissipate? Every recommendation that does not answer that question is a scam. Protection techniques used for the past 100 years are based in what Franklin demonstrated in 1752.

Protection is always - did I mention always - is always about where energy dissipates. Either energy dissipates harmlessly outside the building. Or energy must find destructive paths to earth inside the building. Nothing inside the building - no UPS or power strip protector - stops the hunt.

BT does not waste money on APC or other ineffective protectors. BT, like phone companies everywhere in the world, earth surges before it can go hunting inside.

Even Sun Microsystems say this in their "Planning guide for Sun Server room":
> Section 6.4.7 Lightning Protection:
> Lightning surges cannot be stopped, but they can be diverted. The plans for the data
> center should be thoroughly reviewed to identify any paths for surge entry into the data
> center. Surge arrestors can be designed into the system to help mitigate the potential
> for lightning damage within the data center. These should divert the power of the surge
> by providing a path to ground for the surge energy.

Protection is always about where energy dissipates. A protector is only - did I say always - only as effective as its earth ground.

Why does the APC UPS not claim surge protection in its numeric specs? Where is a dedicated 'less than 3 meter' connection to single point earth ground? No earth ground means no effective protection - as was even true 100 years ago.
 
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Looks like someone things all surges are lightening strikes, at completely difference ends of the scale here and not what household surge protectors and UPS are aimed at, it is going to be pretty hard/expensive to stop damage against lightening strike and I always reccomend unplugging expensive equipment during one.


Voltage drops can damage components just as much as voltage spikes, and this is where the UPS has the advantage.
 
FireShadow said:
What do I buy to "earth a surge before it can go hunting inside?"
How do implement your recommendation?
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First all utilities must enter at a common entrance. Most common earthing electrodes are 3 meter copper clad rods driven into the earth. Connected to AC neutral and a 'whole house' protector maybe via a 4 mm bare copper wire.

In many parts of the world, a master socket contains a protector that would also connect each phone wire short to the same earth ground. BT does not install this whereas it is standard in some other nations.

Cable TV needs no protector to connect to that earth ground. Only a ground block and copper wire need connect to that same earth ground.

Important is each ground wire short, have no sharp wire bends, is not inside metallic conduit, and separated from non-ground wires.

If every incoming wire makes a short connection to the same earth ground. Then a typically destructive surge is not hunting for earth inside via appliances. Even wires entering underground must be earthed before entering. An application note demonstrates the concept:
http://www.erico.com/public/library/fep/technotes/tncr002.pdf

Surges generated inside a building are a popular myth. Appliance such a refrigerator creates a surge? Then everyone is replacing dimmer switches and clock radios many times daily. Any transient generated inside the house is 1) made irrelevant by protection already inside appliances, and 2) made further irrelevant by the 'whole house' protector. A plug-in protector is for protecting from surges that typically do no damage? Yes.

Typical destructive surges, such as transients created by utility switching, seek earth ground. To make all surges irrelevant, a protection system is installed to make even a typically destructive surge – lightning – irrelevant. Either harmlessly outside a building. Or destructively inside a building. That is always about the earthing. And about what makes that short connection to earth.
 
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