Using a stereo amp for movies

TALON1973 · 17 Apr 2020 at 16:51

I was looking at getting a denon pma-600 to connect my TV and 4k player.

I've got some small mission cube speakers and a sub. I was going to go down 3.1 channel but I'm not sure if the extra centre speaker will be benificial, hence was looking at a stereo amp with optical and sub option.

Will i get issues with lyp sync issues when using tv/4k? Or am I better off getting a cheap av amp?

stuman · 18 Apr 2020 at 10:09

I've only ever used 2 channel audio from optical out. You can get a very convincing 3d image from 2 speakers and splitting budget between 2 very good channels or 5 as well as a sub.......

You will be fine with lip-sync issues when using digital cables.

That's quite a lot of amp' to be running a couple of cube speakers, should give good headroom for later upgrades

jpaul · 18 Apr 2020 at 11:14

I've only ever used 2.0 channel too, but,
I would like the capability to be able to boost the central voice channel that is being mixed automatically into the 2.0 tv/player output,
many movies just have rubbish voice mixing imhop. (posted on it before here)

If your'e using a pc as a source, you can do some mixing yourself, but otherwise I see little option but a cheap AV ...
Well - I only really need a pre-amp type mixer, but I've not researched solutions in depth.

hornetstinger · 18 Apr 2020 at 12:06

Issue is video switching, good luck finding a stereo amp with as many digital inputs as a avr with hdmi plus coaxial and optical inputs

jpaul · 18 Apr 2020 at 12:10

like we'd discussed before

jpaul said:
this was the pioneer stereo/2.0 network player from other thread

SX-S30DAB
Stereo-Receiver with 2x80 Watts, 4 HDMI-Inputs, MCACC, preinstalled Streaming Services, Bluetooth, WiFi and HiRes-Networkplayer

hornetstinger · 18 Apr 2020 at 12:18

Still limited connectivity. Mines got three digitql inputs coaxial and optical, using those, plus six hdmi and have used four, dvd, Xbox, PS3, raspberry pi

stuman · 18 Apr 2020 at 12:24

How many gadgets do you guys run?

my telly has 4 hdmi, this then feeds out optical Toslink to my amp.

I’ve never had a situation where I’ve wanted sound that wasn’t what the telly was showing at the same time as what is on the telly.

I really don’t understand these AV amps with 10 HDMI inputs. I can’t even think of 10 different things that you could Plug in, let alone would.

hornetstinger · 18 Apr 2020 at 12:36

My monitor has no arc or audio out so avr with lots of inputs is useful.

Coaxial for squeezebox
Optical for computer one
Coaxial for computer two
Hdmi 1 for dvd
Hdmi 2 for PS3
Hdmi 3 for Xbox
Hdmi 4 for pi3
Now if I buy next gen consoles that's two used.

Also not all inputs are usuable I can't use av3 coaxial on audio only so I have to use a hdmi input even though not using actual hdmi cable, so one hdmi input is redundant.

stuman · 18 Apr 2020 at 12:50

hornetstinger said:
My monitor has no arc or audio out so avr with lots of inputs is useful.

Coaxial for squeezebox
Optical for computer one
Coaxial for computer two
Hdmi 1 for dvd
Hdmi 2 for PS3
Hdmi 3 for Xbox
Hdmi 4 for pi3
Now if I buy next gen consoles that's two used.

Also not all inputs are usuable I can't use av3 coaxial on audio only so I have to use a hdmi input even though not using actual hdmi cable, so one hdmi input is redundant.

well, you are in the minority! 2 computers and a pi, and none of them can spin a dvd all needing their own inputs? A squeezebox, Pc not able to play your media files?

I bet that’s a pain in the arse to manage.

hornetstinger · 18 Apr 2020 at 12:51

stuman said:
How many gadgets do you guys run?

my telly has 4 hdmi, this then feeds out optical Toslink to my amp.

I’ve never had a situation where I’ve wanted sound that wasn’t what the telly was showing at the same time as what is on the telly.

I really don’t understand these AV amps with 10 HDMI inputs. I can’t even think of 10 different things that you could Plug in, let alone would.

I have the option of having display for one, with audio from another.

IE viewing documents from pc whilst listening to Squeezebox.

hornetstinger · 18 Apr 2020 at 12:54

stuman said:
well, you are in the minority! 2 computers and a pi, and none of them can spin a dvd all needing their own inputs? A squeezebox, Pc not able to play your media files?

I bet that’s a pain in the arse to manage.

Squeezebox far superior to use for music playback. PCs are not setup for htpc use. Dvd nice and simple. Dvd is quiet and low power. Or remote controlled and decent scaler.

Learning remote does a lot

You haven't seen the other main system

jpaul · 18 Apr 2020 at 13:50

stuman said:
I’ve never had a situation where I’ve wanted sound that wasn’t what the telly was showing at the same time as what is on the telly.
I really don’t understand these AV amps with 10 HDMI inputs. I can’t even think of 10 different things that you could Plug in, let alone would.

not quite what you meant , but often listen to music, from amp, whilst 1/2 watching muted tv or subtitled programmes, tv's not large enough for browsing from sofa.

but yes 4 hdmis would be fine, on a tv/av - permanent humax pvr, roku, plus PC that is occassionaly plugged via hdmi.

TALON1973 · 18 Apr 2020 at 14:18

jpaul said:
like we'd discussed before

Link doesn’t work

TALON1973 · 18 Apr 2020 at 14:24

I might swap to a budget av amp instead. I’ve got till next month before I make my mind up anyway. Just won’t be above £300. That’s a strict budget. Although I am getting rid of my Sonos beam to mitigate the costs .

tom_nieto · 18 Apr 2020 at 14:50

If you don’t need video switching capabilities, go for a stereo integrated amp every time. £300 should get you a really nice one, especially second hand. Add a DAC if you’ve got digital sources and you’ll have a great setup. I’m using a stereo integrated amp and speakers for my main living room and have been for a while. I don’t miss the centre channel with the current setup. I do have an AV amp for video switching, but for the main room it’s totally out of the loop for audio, not even a pre amp stage as I use direct digital outputs from the sources directly to my DAC. There are definitely simpler ways to setup, but I don’t want to get rid of my Cyrus amp just yet!

TALON1973 · 18 Apr 2020 at 15:18

tom_nieto said:
If you don’t need video switching capabilities, go for a stereo integrated amp every time. £300 should get you a really nice one, especially second hand. Add a DAC if you’ve got digital sources and you’ll have a great setup. I’m using a stereo integrated amp and speakers for my main living room and have been for a while. I don’t miss the centre channel with the current setup. I do have an AV amp for video switching, but for the main room it’s totally out of the loop for audio, not even a pre amp stage as I use direct digital outputs from the sources directly to my DAC. There are definitely simpler ways to setup, but I don’t want to get rid of my Cyrus amp just yet!

Well I’ve got 4 hdmi ports on the tv , 1 of which is the arc port. Atm I use a Sonos beam via arc. Devices is where it gets complicated . I’ve got a bt box, Apple TV box , Xbox one x and a Panasonic 4k player. So I’ve lost 1 hdmi for arc. 4 into 3 doesn’t go.

whichever amp I get, Optical and a sub pre out is a must. Having the centre channel would be preferable, but not essential . As long as I get a perfect sound sync from my tv to amp via optical that’s fine.

hornetstinger · 18 Apr 2020 at 15:30

I went from integrated amp to a avr, offered so much more in connectivity, and ease of setup. Don't need to use a hdmi switch. Didn't need to use external dac (as pc analogue out was noisy)

stuman · 18 Apr 2020 at 15:50

TALON1973 said:
Well I’ve got 4 hdmi ports on the tv , 1 of which is the arc port. Atm I use a Sonos beam via arc. Devices is where it gets complicated . I’ve got a bt box, Apple TV box , Xbox one x and a Panasonic 4k player. So I’ve lost 1 hdmi for arc. 4 into 3 doesn’t go.

whichever amp I get, Optical and a sub pre out is a must. Having the centre channel would be preferable, but not essential . As long as I get a perfect sound sync from my tv to amp via optical that’s fine.

The amp you suggested will do that. ARC won’t matter as you would use toslink. You seem to have a handle on this

you may find that it’s not the level of the centre feed or the mastering, but the quality and clarity of speakers / sound system that is causing issue with voices as less capable systems sacrifice clarity to lift bass output then add treble to make it sound natural. This leaves out the mids where spoken voice is.

order from amazon, see if you like it, if not send it back?

hornetstinger · 18 Apr 2020 at 16:04

stuman said:
The amp you suggested will do that. ARC won’t matter as you would use toslink. You seem to have a handle on this

you may find that it’s not the level of the centre feed or the mastering, but the quality and clarity of speakers / sound system that is causing issue with voices as less capable systems sacrifice clarity to lift bass output then add treble to make it sound natural. This leaves out the mids where spoken voice is.

order from amazon, see if you like it, if not send it back?

Sometimes it is the mix that is messed up. I use a high end center £700, and sometimes I do use dialogue enhance in my av pre to boost speech frequencies.

Stereo amps lack that feature.

Also issue with dynamic range compression, you won't have that either. You may want to use that if watching late at night

lucid · 18 Apr 2020 at 16:34

stuman said:
How many gadgets do you guys run?

my telly has 4 hdmi, this then feeds out optical Toslink to my amp.

I’ve never had a situation where I’ve wanted sound that wasn’t what the telly was showing at the same time as what is on the telly.

I really don’t understand these AV amps with 10 HDMI inputs. I can’t even think of 10 different things that you could Plug in, let alone would.

If all you want is "just some sound" - and you're not bothered that you've just lost DTS, Dolby TrueHD, DTS-MasterAudio, DD+ for Dolby Atmos, 24bit/96kHz stereo, 24bit/192kHz stereo, FLAC, ALAC, DSD, 5.1 PCM, 7.1 PCM and a whole host of other audio formats - then sure, pipe all your sound through the TV and let it either downscale or simply reject the sound format with which it is presented.

The average TV doesn't handle that many sound formats. Even the latest ones with eARC can't do justice to the HD surround signals, so ultimately some kind of external sound system is needed anyway.

In addition, there are plenty of times I'll listen to sound but not have the TV on: FM radio, DAB internet radio, satellite radio, CD, vinyl, SACD, music streaming from home NAS, music streaming from online sources. Besides, a TV wouldn't be that practical as a source switch for some of these signals.

On top of all of this, there's quality. TV audio processing circuitry is electrically noisy. I'm not talking about the sort of obvious loud buzzing or white noise that you'd hear easily if something in the path was broken. It's a little more subtle than that, and quite hard for someone to comprehend if they've never really heard good audio get mangled by some poor device in the signal chain. The closest broad analogy I can think of right now is the effect of a bad lens on image quality. The image looks less crisp, and maybe slightly duller, and perhaps there's some colour fringing. All of this takes away from the original. That's kind of what happens when sound passes through cheap audio electronics and gets polluted with high-frequency switching noise.

Just because your experience is limited to the sort of audio that a TV can cope with, it doesn't mean that everyone else is in the same boat.