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Curiosityx

Curiosityx

Curiosityx

Soldato
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Greetings, i have a small client with approx 150 users who are looking at replacing their existing 3 servers and would like a cost effective HA solution as well as the replacement of existing equipment.

At present we just need to run Windows 2008 - AD/File/Print on one box and Windows 2008 + Exchange 2007 and possible SQL 2008 on the second.

Im looking at virtualising both servers to accomplish the HA requirement, could someone recommend the best approach.

Im currently thinking along the lines of the following


* 2 x DL360G6's w/ Dual Quad Core CPU's, 16Gb memory running VMware Infrastructure Standard + VMotion License

* Connected to HP MSA SAN

* Virtual Centre installed onto 3rd physical server possibly Dl320 also running Windows 2008 + AD


The other method i was playing with was to keep the same hardware as above, drop the Dl320 and go with ESXi instead, should a server fail i could then manually load the VM from the SAN onto the second working server.


Suggestions welcome but the budget isnt endless unfortunately.

Regards
 
Curiosityx said:
Greetings, i have a small client with approx 150 users who are looking at replacing their existing 3 servers and would like a cost effective HA solution as well as the replacement of existing equipment.

At present we just need to run Windows 2008 - AD/File/Print on one box and Windows 2008 + Exchange 2007 and possible SQL 2008 on the second.

Im looking at virtualising both servers to accomplish the HA requirement, could someone recommend the best approach.

Im currently thinking along the lines of the following


* 2 x DL360G6's w/ Dual Quad Core CPU's, 16Gb memory running VMware Infrastructure Standard + VMotion License

* Connected to HP MSA SAN

* Virtual Centre installed onto 3rd physical server possibly Dl320 also running Windows 2008 + AD


The other method i was playing with was to keep the same hardware as above, drop the Dl320 and go with ESXi instead, should a server fail i could then manually load the VM from the SAN onto the second working server.


Suggestions welcome but the budget isnt endless unfortunately.

Regards
Click to expand...

I'd probably go with DL380's myself alhough the 360's should be ok, we use DL580's G4's/G5's (64GB) and I use a seperate physical VC server just because it seems more sensible.

What are you planning on putting on the SQL box?

Also you might want to look at some of the new Sun server they are really good value at the moment.

Oh and the main reason for the 380's is you can fit more NIC's in them. I use 2 Intel Quads in each server (10 Int total) gives plenty of bandwidth but from what you say 1 may suffice depends on the companies growth profile.

good luck... but you'll love working with ESX!
 
I'd say DL380's also. Mainly because of the upgradeability in the future so rather than having to buy new kit you simply just add more processors / memory.

The thing we were taught on the VCP course is if you think logically about your installation there can only be one VCP server which means a single point of failure. To get around this you can actually virtualise the VCP server and this is what we do quite successfully. That will save you a few £ on another server so you can put it to getting some nice 380's.




M.
 
I'd disagree actually, the 380 is still a dual socket server and off the top of my head, doesnt have much more memory capacity.

It doesnt sound like the requirements are that high, so I wouldnt worry too much.

A few thoughts, plucked at random out of my head

- Try and get Enterprise if you can, its not going to cost much more than standard+vmotion. There's a promo on some of the accelleration kits until the end of the month, worth a look

- The lower end MSA arrays havent got a very good name in the VMware community, quite a few problems

- With that many servers, a DAS solution may be suitable, so long as you dont plan to scale above 3 hosts.

- If you stick below 3 hosts, get VirtualCenter foundation, its a lot cheaper

- Put VC on a VM so you get HA (abbreviation soup!)

To put this in context, I'm nearing the completion of a virtualisation project from physical (DL380 G4s) onto VMware. The new kit is 3 x Sun X4440 (awesome kit), 2 x 1.9Ghz Quad Opterons (quad capable), 16gb RAM and a Sun 2510 iSCSI SAN (12x146gb 15k SAS) and dedicated HP ProCurve switches. Onto that, we have a Progress DB server, an SQL server, 2 Exchange servers (inc Mailboxes), file/print server, 2 DCs, 3 Citrix servers, 2 ISA servers, a MySQL server, a MS Search Server, 2 SMTP servers, a document generation server and a Linux Web server.

Performance? Frankly, its outstanding. It's absolutely blown away the old HP kit (a rack full of it!), yet they're blowing out cold air. DRS keeps things nicely balanced.

If anything else pops into my head I'll come back :)
 
Incidentally the x4440 (quad socket) can be had for a similar price as a DL380 (dual socket) and the x4140 (dual socket) for a lot less.

You're not going to need local storage or more than 1 other NIC (there's 4 on board) so the x4140 is worth a look. Or if you want the expansion (8 HDDs, 6 PCI-E, 4 CPU and 32 DIMM) the x4400 is cracking value
 
How much usage is the SQL box getting, it isn't advised (and I think not supported) to run in a virtual environment...
 
Baz said:
How much usage is the SQL box getting, it isn't advised (and I think not supported) to run in a virtual environment...
Click to expand...

Unless you are running a *VERY* busy database - don't worry about it.

I'd be more worried about running Exchange on it.

Have you run performance monitoring on the existing servers? What sort of SAN are you considering - FC or iSCSI? What disks are you going to put in it? SAS/SATA? 7.2K, 10K, 15K?
 
As I said in my post, I'm running multiple DB servers and Exchange servers on VMware and performace has surpassed physical hardware. My company is similar numbers of users to the OP's company too
 
VMware has allready prooved they can beat MS limitations of 20,000 users per exchange box.

I use a C class chassis with BL460s with DL 360 G5 pizza boxes for command view, vcb, vranger etc.

The idea to go with DL 380s so you can fit more NICs in is a good idea. especially if your going to go iscsi which i assume as FC switches cost a wedge.

I actually have the VIM server as a virtual one however the database for it is stored on a SQL server outside the virtual environment incase of issues.
 
iaind said:
I'd disagree actually, the 380 is still a dual socket server and off the top of my head, doesnt have much more memory capacity.

It doesnt sound like the requirements are that high, so I wouldnt worry too much.

A few thoughts, plucked at random out of my head

- Try and get Enterprise if you can, its not going to cost much more than standard+vmotion. There's a promo on some of the accelleration kits until the end of the month, worth a look

- The lower end MSA arrays havent got a very good name in the VMware community, quite a few problems

- With that many servers, a DAS solution may be suitable, so long as you dont plan to scale above 3 hosts.

- If you stick below 3 hosts, get VirtualCenter foundation, its a lot cheaper

- Put VC on a VM so you get HA (abbreviation soup!)

To put this in context, I'm nearing the completion of a virtualisation project from physical (DL380 G4s) onto VMware. The new kit is 3 x Sun X4440 (awesome kit), 2 x 1.9Ghz Quad Opterons (quad capable), 16gb RAM and a Sun 2510 iSCSI SAN (12x146gb 15k SAS) and dedicated HP ProCurve switches. Onto that, we have a Progress DB server, an SQL server, 2 Exchange servers (inc Mailboxes), file/print server, 2 DCs, 3 Citrix servers, 2 ISA servers, a MySQL server, a MS Search Server, 2 SMTP servers, a document generation server and a Linux Web server.

Performance? Frankly, its outstanding. It's absolutely blown away the old HP kit (a rack full of it!), yet they're blowing out cold air. DRS keeps things nicely balanced.

If anything else pops into my head I'll come back :)
Click to expand...


Thank you for all the replies guys, the comments in regards to the DL380's are noted that i dont believe the estate will ever scale that far, storage perhaps but not server capacity, in regards to DAS would you know which MSA is recommended by the community at this time? Also would i be correct in assuming that SAS is prefered over ISCSI for DAS storage?

The SQL server will only be lightly used, approx 50-75 clients but unlikely that they will all be connected at the same time. I was feeling quite comfortable putting it on the same VM as Exchange, although if it needs to go onto a seperate VM i dont see a problem.

Im very familiar with the HP product line but in all fairness dropped out of the server game to focus on Cisco sometime ago, id like to get this right the first time though :)


Also looking at the current bundles would this be suitable to fail over VM's in case of failure?

VMware Infrastructure Standard High Availability Acceleration Kit

http://store.vmware.com/store/vmware/en_US/DisplayProductDetailsPage/productID.83629500
 
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Cant comment on which MSA is preferred, but I think the whole range is pretty poorly regarded at the low end. I'd look elsewhere personally.

Assuming you mean SAS over U320 SCSI (not iSCSI) then yes, although you'll struggle to get anything but SAS. It gives you flexibility to use SATA drives for lower performance applications.

Separate your SQL from Exchange. One of the massive benefits of VMs is different systems can be managed separately. What happens if you need to reboot your SQL server? You'll loose Exchange - for what a Windows license costs its worth separating.

The G6 kit looks very nice esp with the new Nehalem CPUs, the switches are also very good - I'd just be wary about the MSA gear.

VI standard comes with HA, but if you can stretch it then go for Enterprise. DRS is awesome, watching it shift machines about of it's own accord is brilliant, especially when it starts to predict regular occurences...

I cant share quotes for obvious reasons, but I've had pricing on the Midsize kit (3 x Enterprise, VC Foundation and training) for about 2k more than the list price of the standard kit you posted - well worth it.

If you want more detailed help just ask. I'm a VCP specialising in small/medium deployment projects and there are a few other VCPs around here too.
 
iaind said:
Cant comment on which MSA is preferred, but I think the whole range is pretty poorly regarded at the low end. I'd look elsewhere personally.

Assuming you mean SAS over U320 SCSI (not iSCSI) then yes, although you'll struggle to get anything but SAS. It gives you flexibility to use SATA drives for lower performance applications.

Separate your SQL from Exchange. One of the massive benefits of VMs is different systems can be managed separately. What happens if you need to reboot your SQL server? You'll loose Exchange - for what a Windows license costs its worth separating.

The G6 kit looks very nice esp with the new Nehalem CPUs, the switches are also very good - I'd just be wary about the MSA gear.

VI standard comes with HA, but if you can stretch it then go for Enterprise. DRS is awesome, watching it shift machines about of it's own accord is brilliant, especially when it starts to predict regular occurences...

I cant share quotes for obvious reasons, but I've had pricing on the Midsize kit (3 x Enterprise, VC Foundation and training) for about 2k more than the list price of the standard kit you posted - well worth it.

If you want more detailed help just ask. I'm a VCP specialising in small/medium deployment projects and there are a few other VCPs around here too.
Click to expand...

Your time is much appreciated, ive got a meeting with the client early next week to finalise the HA requirements, i have a feeling they may be one of those businesses who very much like the buzz words but get a little edgy when presented with the associated costs.

If i could pick your brains next week it would be a great help.

Regards
 
SQL use is now supported (see the SVVP) - DBAs hate it however.

150 users in this instance should make this an easy project.

Firstly, what storage will you be using exactly? An MSA2000 or a 1000? Or something else? Is it FC connected or iSCSI? If it's an MSA2000 I presume it'll be one shelf of FC or will there be two shelves (to allow for FC and SATA?). Also, don't forget the host limits when it comes to the MSA2000.... they're quite low for everything but FC.

Now, the key two apps are Exchange and SQL...

For Exchange, 150 users fits in to SMB category, therefore you'd assume mostly light use but we'll take medium to heavy use just to be cautious. If we assume 150 heavy users, you're talking approx 150 IOPS for the database, therefore one FC disk (!). The log usage will also be low therefore again, one disk would suffice.

To SQL... it's pretty hard to work out how much load it'll require based on the above. Firstly, is it configured correctly (ie, sequential (logs)/random (dbs) IO seperated) or is it all on one drive? If it's seperated, just run some perfmon stuff for disk transfers/sec)... this should give you a rough IO. If it's not seperated, still run the perfmon log but it'll overread slightly. The number you receive should tell you rougly the amount of disks to buy (each 15k FC disk is approx 180 IOPS but you'll get a performance hit for random IO). Therefore presuming you get less than 180 writes per sec you only need one disk for your DB.

Now, on to disk sizing. Presuming you're not using aggregated storage, for your environment, I'd have four RAID groups, one VMFS LUN for the Operating Systems (and AD/Print), one for your FP server, one for both your SQL and Exchange databases (OMIGODS!) and one for your logs for both SQL and Exchange. The reason I'm grouping SQL and Exchange in to the RAID groups is I'm presuming it's low IO (prove me wrong?) and thus saving you some pennies.

So...

VMFS - RAID 1 (2 disks) - negligable IO on the host once booted (there should be no paging)
FP - RAID 5 (x disks) - put as many disks in as per your storage requirements, SATA would be beneficial but be wary of large disks and this may require a different RAID configuration...
SQL/EX DBS - RAID 5 (3 disks) - this configuration supports approx 540IOPS but is biased towards read due to the write hit that RAID 5 takes. Again, at SMB I'd presume this'd be ok.
SQL/EX Logs - RAID 1 or RAID 10 (2 or 4 disks) - Exchange is VERY picky about it's log files, if you go RAID 1 with 2 disks and the IO and response isn't up to it, Exchange will run appaulingly, therefore 4 disks may be required in a RAID 10....

As for servers, again, depends on your workloads but with 150 users, Exchange won't even scratch a decent ESX host. SQL will need investigating.... but realistically, if you don't buy HA or DRS, you could probably run everything you have on a dual socket, quad core (or more) box with 24-32gb of mem.... seriously.
 
From the sounds of it, the OP hasnt yet for the hardware specs finalised. I would very much advise against FC over iSCSI as it would be a collosal waste of money.

I wouldnt bother putting the boot volume on the SAN, as with iSCSI this would need a dedicated HBA which wont really show any performance benefits in a depoloyment this size. So 2 local disks for booting ESX...

I configured my SAN a bit more simply - a 4 disk RAID10 for system drives/transaction logs, a 7 disk RAID5 for the data and a global hotspare.

One thing to consider if they want really true HA is the new fault tolerance feature coming in VI4. This effectively keeps a copy running on a standby host, by doing continuous delta memory copies, so if one host fails the other will take over with NO downtime.. Whereas with HA the VM will reboot on another host when one fails. This is likely to be an "Enterprise" feature though - in inverted commas because the licensing hasnt been announced yet, but it is expected to be more modular than it currently is...
 
Almost forgot about this, had a meeting with the client today, yes it does look like they want HA for AD, Exchange and SQL so will be looking at the VMWare route, as i havent the time to get to involved in this although it's of great interest ive managed to find a local consultant to help with the build but the comments here have been very useful.

So yes we will probably be looking at 2 x DL360 G6's and a single MSA2000sa although id be keen to have a look at alternatives,, VMwise i think we will have to use three to keep AD, Exchange and SQL seperate.

Regards
 
Sounds like a good option (apart from the MSA but if they're set on the HP then what can you do...)

I'd put 2 DCs on (4 VMs total) and keep them on separate hosts. Otherwise, remember to set the DC to a higher priority restart than Exchange/SQL - you dont want those coming back up before AD :)
 
I think with the hardware you are looking at and the requirements of the VM's you won't have a problem with Exchange/SQL Server at all.

Might be worth looking into something like vReplicator or vRanger (forget which) which take incremental/full snapshots of machines and move them off elsewhere.

Alternativley, you could invest in Virtual Center and have the failover stuff nicely sorted with one host taking over if the other dies, etc.
 
Well so far i have the following kit list

2 x HP DL360 G6 Servers - No Local Storage, Includes MSA SAS HBA, Cables and integrated VmWare ESXi option kit.
http://h18004.www1.hp.com/products/quickspecs/13235_div/13235_div.HTML

2 504637-421 HP DL360 G6 E5504 Entry EU Svr
2 507682-B21 HP E5504 DL360 G6 Kit
4 516423-B21 HP 8GB 2Rx4 PC3-8500R-7 Kit (http://h18000.www1.hp.com/products/servers/options/tool/hp_memtool.html)
2 532066-B21 HP DL360G6 12.7mm SATA DVD Kit
2 503296-B21 HP 460W HE 12V Hotplg AC Pwr Supply Kit
2 464668-B21 HP integrated VMware ESX Server 3i Standalone 2P
2 488765-B21 HP SC08Ge SAS HBA to connect to a host


HP 2000sa Modular Smart Array
http://h18000.www1.hp.com/products/quickspecs/13045_div/13045_div.html

1 AJ752A HP StorageWorks MSA2012sa - Single Controller Modular Smart Array
6 AJ736A HP StorageWorks MSA2 300GB 3G 15K 3.5-inch SAS DP HDD


Due to cost we will most likely be using ESXi embedded, in the event a server fails we can still bring the failed VM back up on the second server manually, following further discussions with the client the recovery windows would be between 2 - 4 hours anyhow.

Regards
 
How much you being quoted on that lot??

I am just about to get the rubber stamp on:

MSA2012i Dual Controller with 3 additional enclosures with

10 x 300GB 15k SAS drives (RAID 10)
10 x 1TB SATA drives

4 DL380 with 2 x Quad core CPU, 32GB RAM each, 3 dual HBA

Ultrium LTO4 Tape Library

VMware ESX infrastructure

Dual HP Procurve Switches

Backup software for VMWare machines
and all the cables, new UPS batteries and Addiditional Exchange server licenses

and that comes to 55k.....

Mind you that lot is going to run 15 servers :)
 
I havent gotton pricing yet, currently thinking of the best method to back up data held on the virtual machines stored on the MSA.

Your list puts mine to shame somewhat :D
 
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