WC Rads .. any comparison sites ?

[Reality|Bites]

post by Marci:

Well, with the new PA Series rads finally getting sorted, figured may as well do a comparison of HE120.3 vs PA120.3 with the same fans... to do so required some monitoring tools in the form of the mCubed T-Balancer and some handiwork with silicon... thus giving me liquid in and out temps... and air in and out temps. Unit under full load with as much heat as possible, whilst keeping speeds at stock, CPU set to 1.75v. AGP VDDQ to 1.6v. 100% load inflicted.

Temps were meaured every 20mins. Surveying them, they levelled out rapidly, within an hour, and hovered around the same points for the rest of testing (controlled ambient as best possible).

Max variance in ambient temp was 1.5 deg C. This was reflected across the board.

Note, temps shown are just a quick cross-section of readings recorded, not complete end-to-end results...

HE120.3 with 3x Panaflo M1A@7v

Air<: 23.0 | 24.0 | 23.5 | 23.0 | 23.5 | 24.5 | 24.0
Air>: 26.0 | 27.0 | 26.5 | 26.0 | 26.5 | 27.5 | 27.0
Liq<: 33.5 | 34.0 | 34.0 | 34.0 | 34.0 | 34.5 | 34.5
Liq>: 33.0 | 33.5 | 33.5 | 33.5 | 33.5 | 34.0 | 33.5

CPU: 17.0 | 17.0 | 18.0 | 18.0 | 18.0 | 19.0 | 18.0
GPU: 19.0 | 19.0 | 20.0 | 19.0 | 20.0 | 20.0 | 20.0

< = In
> = Out

So, averages are being used.

I'll summise testing of the HE120.3 with Panaflo M1A (fans at 7.04v by multimeter) as follows:

Avg Air <: 23.6
Avg Air >: 26.6
Avg Air Dt: 03.0
Avg Liq <: 33.9
Avg Liq >: 33.5
Avg Liq Dt: 0.40

Next step - remove HE120.3, install PA120.3 with same fans set to same voltage by Rheostat (measured with multimeter). This gave me the following recordset...

PA120.3 with 3x Panaflo M1A@7v

Air<: 22.5 | 24.0 | 22.5 | 23.0 | 23.0 | 23.5 | 22.5 | 23.0 | 22.5 | 22.5
Air>: 27.5 | 28.0 | 27.5 | 28.0 | 28.0 | 28.5 | 28.0 | 28.5 | 28.0 | 28.0
Liq<: 30.5 | 30.5 | 31.0 | 31.0 | 31.0 | 31.0 | 30.5 | 31.0 | 30.5 | 31.0
Liq>: 30.0 | 30.0 | 30.0 | 30.0 | 30.5 | 30.5 | 30.0 | 30.0 | 30.0 | 30.0
CPU: 15.0 | 15.0 | 15.0 | 14.0 | 15.0 | 15.0 | 15.0 | 15.0 | 15.0 | 15.0
GPU: 15.0 | 15.0 | 15.0 | 16.0 | 16.0 | 16.0 | 15.0 | 15.0 | 15.0 | 15.0

Avg Air <: 22.9
Avg Air >: 28.0
Avg Air Dt: 05.1
Avg Liq <: 30.8
Avg Liq >: 30.1
Avg Liq Dt: 00.7

Already, we see a substantial drop in CPU and GPU temps between the two rads, with the PA120.3 shaving 4 or 5 degrees off each over the old HE series.

Figured I'd go for some self-amusement next...

PA160 with 1x Panaflo M1A@7v
Well... I'm impressed...

Air<: 24.0 | 23.5 | 23.0 | 23.5 | 23.5 | 23.0 | 24.0 | 23.5
Air>: 31.5 | 31.5 | 31.5 | 31.5 | 31.5 | 31.5 | 32.0 | 31.5
Liq<: 37.0 | 37.5 | 37.5 | 37.0 | 37.0 | 37.5 | 38.0 | 38.0
Liq>: 35.5 | 36.5 | 36.0 | 36.0 | 35.5 | 36.0 | 36.5 | 36.5
CPU: 21.0 | 22.0 | 21.0 | 21.0 | 21.0 | 21.0 | 21.0 | 21.0
GPU: 21.0 | 22.0 | 22.0 | 22.0 | 22.0 | 22.0 | 22.0 | 22.0

Avg Air <: 23.5
Avg Air >: 31.5
Avg Air Dt: 08.0
Avg Liq <: 37.4
Avg Liq >: 36.0
Avg Liq Dt: 01.4

Only 1 or 2 degrees hotter than the HE120.3 manages on CPU & GPU temps, with 2 less fans = less noise. Always a bonus!


PA160 with 2x Panaflo M1A@7v (PushPull with dual shrouds)

Air<: 23.0 | 23.0 | 24.0 | 23.0 | 23.0 | 23.5 | 24.0 | 23.5 | 24.0 | 23.5
Air>: 27.0 | 28.0 | 27.5 | 27.5 | 27.5 | 27.5 | 27.5 | 28.5 | 28.0 | 29.5
Liq<: 34.5 | 35.5 | 36.5 | 36.5 | 36.5 | 36.5 | 37.0 | 37.5 | 37.5 | 38.0
Liq>: 34.0 | 35.0 | 35.0 | 35.0 | 35.0 | 35.0 | 35.5 | 36.0 | 36.5 | 36.5
CPU: 19.0 | 20.0 | 21.0 | 20.0 | 21.0 | 21.0 | 21.0 | 21.5 | 21.5 | 21.5
GPU: 19.0 | 21.0 | 21.0 | 21.0 | 21.0 | 21.0 | 21.0 | 22.0 | 22.0 | 22.0

Compare these figures to figures above - result? 2x fans in Push-Pull is of no major benefit over 1x fan in push.

PA120.2 with 2x Panaflo M1A@7v

Air<: 22.5 | 22.0 | 22.5 | 22.0 | 22.5 | 22.5 | 22.0
Air>: 32.0 | 31.5 | 32.0 | 32.0 | 32.0 | 32.0 | 32.0
Liq<: 33.0 | 33.0 | 33.0 | 33.0 | 33.5 | 33.5 | 33.0
Liq>: 32.5 | 32.0 | 32.5 | 32.5 | 32.5 | 32.5 | 32.5
CPU: 18.0 | 17.0 | 18.0 | 18.0 | 18.0 | 18.0 | 17.0
GPU: 18.0 | 18.0 | 18.0 | 18.0 | 18.0 | 18.0 | 18.0

Avg Air <: 22.3
Avg Air >: 31.9
Avg Air Dt: 09.6
Avg Liq <: 33.1
Avg Liq >: 32.4
Avg Liq Dt: 00.7

2x PA160 with 1x Panaflo M1A@7v on each

AirIn <: 23.5 | 24.0 | 23.5 | 24.0 | 23.5 | 23.5 | 23.5 | 23.5
AirRad1>: 29.0 | 28.5 | 29.0 | 29.0 | 29.0 | 29.0 | 29.0 | 29.0
AirRad2>: 29.0 | 29.0 | 29.0 | 29.0 | 29.0 | 29.0 | 29.0 | 29.0
Liq <: 31.0 | 30.5 | 30.5 | 31.0 | 31.0 | 31.0 | 31.0 | 31.0
LiqMid : 30.5 | 30.0 | 30.0 | 30.0 | 30.0 | 30.5 | 30.0 | 30.0
Liq >: 30.5 | 30.0 | 30.0 | 30.0 | 30.0 | 30.0 | 30.0 | 30.0
CPU : 16.0 | 16.0 | 15.0 | 16.0 | 16.0 | 16.0 | 16.0 | 16.0
GPU : 15.0 | 15.0 | 15.0 | 15.0 | 15.0 | 16.0 | 15.0 | 15.0

Avg Air Into Rads <: 23.6
Avg Air Out of Rads>: 29.0
Avg Air Dt : 05.4
Avg Liq Into Rads <: 30.8
Avg Liq Out of Rads : 30.0
Avg Liq Dt : 00.8

Break it down...
PA160 with 1x Panaflo M1A @ 7v: CPU - 21 GPU - 22
HE120.3 with 3x ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ : CPU - 18 GPU - 19
PA120.2 with 2x ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ : CPU - 17.7 GPU - 18
2x PA160 with 1x ^^ on each ^ : CPU - 15.8 GPU - 15.1
PA120.3 with 3x ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ : CPU - 15 GPU - 15
Further independant comparative results vs other rads - Testing Performed by Radiical53 on behalf of HardwareLuxx Magazine - Germany

120.3 radiator formats tested. Results scale down perfectly for all other formats (120.2, 120.1) from same radiator family (as originally proven in BillA's testing of the HE Series MANY years ago)

1 - Pressure Drop - flow set at 4lpm at pump, pressure drop measured after radiator. % loss shown - smaller the loss, better the pressure.. listed best to worst.
ThermoChill PA120.3 - 6%
Watercool HTFX3-x - 14%
HWLabs BlackIce GT360 - 17%
HWLabs BlackIce GT360 XFlow - 17%
HWLabs BlackIce Xtreme - 17%
HWLabs BlackIce Xtreme XFlow - 17%
Watercool HTSF - 17%
Cooltek MCR320 - 18%
NexXxos Xtreme - 23%
NexXxos Pro - 27%
As you can see, you could theoretically run TWO Thermochill rads, and still have better headpressure than if you were using a SINGLE rad of any other brand.

2 - Performance order (best to worst) based on final coolant temp, cooled with YateLoon 120mm fan - lower the "k" figure (difference between coolant temp and air temp), cooler the coolant, therefore better the performance...

At 600rpm:
Thermochill PA120.3 - 7k
Watercool HTSF - 8k
Watercool HTSF3-x - 8.4k
Cooltek Maxistream / Swiftech MCR - 8.4k
Black Ice GT - 9.2k
Black Ice Extreme - 11k
Alphacool NexXxos Pro - 11.2k
Black Ice GT X-Flow - 12.1k
Black Ice Extreme X-Flow - 12.3k
Alphacool NexXxos Extreme - 14k
At 900rpm:
ThermoChill - 6.2k
Cooltek - 6.9k
BIGT - 7.2k
WC HTSF - 7.3k
BIGT-XFlow - 7.3k
WC HTSF3-x - 7.4k
NexXxos Pro - 7.5k
BIX - 8.5k
NexXxos Extreme - 8.5k
BIX-XFlow - 9.5k
At 1200rpm:
ThermoChill - 4.2k
Cooltek - 5.6k
BIGT - 5.7k
BIGT-XFlow - 5.9k
BIX - 5.9k
NexXxos Pro - 6.1k
NexXxos Extreme - 6.1k
HTF3-x - 6.3k
HTSF - 6.3k
BIX-XFlow - 6.6k
The rad with the lowest delta (k) can also (because it is returning the coolant to a lower temperature) handle more heat at the same temp as another brand rad... eg: You could shift 500w with Brand X at 1200rpm. With ThermoChill at 1200rpm you could shift MORE than 500w - more cooling power for the same noise level... or you could shift 500w on it's own at LOWER than 1200rpm, therefore same cooling power, but less noise.

Couple the fact that ThermoChill PA Series is FAR less restrictive to pressure than any other rad, AS WELL as the fact that it outperforms all the rest at every fan speed tested, with it's lead increasing the quieter the fan... and the results are obvious. One family of radiators out there will always beat all the rest (and I'm glad someone finally tested all those out there to allow me to actually say this with some proof to back it up!) - the lower pressure restriction alone will mean better performance out of EVERY block in your system, as you'll have better pressure rates thru-out the entire setup (crucial for impingement blocks etc)

Note, these results are from independant testing by HardwareLuxx Magazine in Germany, and were published in May 2006 in their magazine in a head to head shootout of the top 10 Triple-120mm radiators available today. The original article in German is available to download from http://www.thermochill.com/pa1203.php, and since it's publication, we've seen ThermoChill sales to the German market soar, to the point that big name companies over there who currently rely on the chinese-clone rads as their main rad (ie: The XSPC rad) are beginning to switch over to using ThermoChill products instead...

These results also highlight the fact that singlepass rads on the market currently, which are all a dualpass with tanks knocked off and singlepass tanks slapped on, perform worse than their dualpass counterparts, and offer no benefits when it comes to flow restriction (the entire black ice range, whether dualpass or singlepass, still poses a 17% restriction). Other than the ThermoChill PA160 which was designed from the ground up as Singlepass...

So, if you're using silent low airflow fans, depending on your current rad, you could be seeing coolant temps upto 7 degrees cooler from a ThermoChill rad over another brand. The higher the airflow, the smaller the difference (eg: 2.4 degrees at 1200rpm rather than 7 degrees at 600rpm)... but in this day and age where everyone wants as quiet as possible... the PA series is the best choice.

ADDENDUM - OCTOBER 2006 - Further independant comparative results vs other rads - Testing Performed by Radical_53 - Germany

ThermoChill PA120.2 vs Swiftech MCR320
PA120.2 fitted with shroud and 2x YateLoon D12-SL fans, Swiftech MCR320 fitted with 3x of the same...

As you can see from the above figures, the PA120.2 with shroud manages to effectively match the Swiftech MCR320, with less noise due to fewer fans in play...


ADDENDUM - JANUARY 2007 - Bill Adam's Results from Testing of the PA Series
See http://www.thermochill.com/PATesting/

 

[Marci]

As far as I'm aware, only a chap called Radicaal has tested a few radiators (might have only been Swiftech and Thermochill).

Radical did the head to head shoot out quoted above... from "1 - Pressure Drop - flow set at 4lpm at pump" onwards is Radical's data. Above that is my own data of PA Series vs HE Series with consistent fans and flowrates to demonstrate improvement of PA over HE at low airflow rates.

The problem is not a lot of companies would pay to have theirs tested. The MCR radiators are designed by a chap called BillA and they're made and licensed only to be branded as CoolTek and Switech radiators (don't quote me 100% on that).

BillA was the worldwide radiator tester - he established a means of testing and comparing. More or less every radiator review or comparison that is held in any form of high regard was produced by data that he acquired using his testrigs and testing methodology. He designed Swiftech (aka Cooltek) radiators, and Coolingworks radiators. He has tested more or less every brand of radiator out there and published data on them - you just have to hunt it down and corelate it into something useable, taking into account testrig differences etc depending when the review was done.

http://www.thermochill.com/PATesting = BillA's test data of ThermoChill PA Series, inc PA vs MCR220 for reference point, done specifically so could reference the GTS240 vs MCR220 vs CR22T data below to position performance relative against BI and Swiftech products.
http://www.overclockers.com/articles778/ = BillA's test data of ThermoChill HE Series
http://www.cooling-masters.com/articles-38-0.html = BillA's test data of GTS240 vs MCR220 vs CR22T and a few others
http://www.swiftnets.com/Technical/Assessment of Radiator Performance.pdf = BillA's testing of old generation radiators prior to PA Series launch.
http://www.swiftnets.com - browse to each of Swiftech's Radiators - test data graphs are/were BillA derived.

IE: All Radiator performance data scattered around the net was collected by the same individual.

post by Marci:

Well, with the new PA Series rads finally getting sorted,

Would've been much easier just to post the link... http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=77260

 

[Vogon]

Thanks Marci, .. more info than I can shake a stick at

A lot of it goes over my simple noggin, but what I can work out, coupled with what you posted in another thread at OcUK, looks like the PA 120.3 is going to be the best option for my needs.

 

[Marci]

Long story short, according to all test data above, if using fans below 100cfm... a PA120.2 beats all other 120.2's using the same fans. A PA120.3 beats all other 120.3's with the same fans. A PA120.1 beats all other 120.1's using the same fans... a PA160 stands level with SOME 120.2's using 1x of the same 2x fans. 2x PA120.2 will beat a single Quad radiator using same fans. 1x PA120.3 and a PA120.1 will beat a single quad radiator using same fans. In the quad instances, the equivalent PA Series combinations will also provide much less pressure drop than the single quad radiator. Basically, fan per fan, when comparing 6x fans worth of PA radiators vs 6x fans worth of anyone else's radiators, the PA series generally wins... 1x fans worth vs 1 fans worth, 2 vs 2, 3 vs 3, 4 vs 4 etc etc as long as the number of fans / surface area of radiators is relatively equal between the two you choose to compare, the PA series equivalent should win as long as airflow is below 100cfm per fan... and the LOWER you get with the airflow, the larger the lead of the PA Series over the competitor.

PA Series were designed after all the above test data for everyone else's rads was released which meant we could design specifically to beat the competition at airflow levels / noise levels that todays consumers were using. 4 years ago, everyone looked for the noisiest most powerful fans out there for their rigs. These days, folks want the quietest fans. A complete flip-round in thinking. HE Series were designed to excel with the noisest most powerful of fans out there. PA Series was designed for the opposite - to excel with the quietest weakest fans out there... and in both cases, maintaining the lowest pressure drop (restriction to flow) possible. Two ways of thinking developed around this time. One supported thinner radiator / core = better for silent fans. The other supported thicker with low fin density = better for silent fans. ThermoChill went with the thicker / low fin density combination. Everyone else went with thinner / higher finner density... this resulted in everyone else's rads being more restrictive to airflow, and more restrictive to liquid flow.

The added thickness means the PA series will always be more expensive than the rest, even if they were built in the same factory as the rest - more raw materials required... and partnered with "made in the UK" means wherever you go in the world, PA will always cost more due to exchange rates - it's the only radiator series worldwide that's made in the UK.

Swiftech rads - made in China. Coolingworks - made in China. Magicool (and the plethora of other names it's sold under) - made in China. HWLabs - made in Phillipines.

Economics: Chinese labour = cheaper than UK labour by a LONG shot...

 

[Reality|Bites]

I pasted it from your shop's forum , I don't visit XS

 

[Marci]

Ah righty - furinuff!

 

[Vogon]

Owww ... some very sexy chrome grills available too

 

[Marci]

Kikbox should be launching some even nicer designs within the next month or so specifically for our rads...

 

[sammie377]

Great to see Marci on here, he's the guy who also advised me, super guy even though he told me basically whats here my ramblings were nothing in comparison, you can now see why I bought the Thermochill rads and I'm very pleased I did.

 

[Jleo]

Hi google this; thermochill xtreme test

I have a HE 120.3 and a PA 120.3 to be honest I was hoping the PA would be a big improvement over the HE but it wasn't anything huge, more like 1c 2c at very most, the HE is cheaper thinner and very nearly as good, shame I only have the one PC as it's sitting in it's box whilst the PA is taking more room up in my PC than the HE did.
Buy a HE and you will be a happy bunny.

PS I also had a Storm and bought the D Tek Fuzion and same story but worse I couldn't even measure the difference, another box with a Storm sitting in it, no wonder the wallets empty.

Maybe someone you know well would sell those items on the members market for you and recoupe some cash for your wallet

 

[sammie377]

Maybe someone you know well would sell those items on the members market for you and recoupe some cash for your wallet

Whats the members market?

Also had a idea to build another PC but not convinced the wife yet.

 

[Vogon]

Members market is a place on these forums to buy/sell your secondhand PC related bits.
You need (IIRC) 200 posts before you can see/access it.

That "trust" button at the bottom of peoples posts is the feedback system and also contains a contact mail addy

 

[Monkey Puzzle]

I think it's 250 posts and you need to have been a member on the forums for 3 months.

 

[sammie377]

OK gottcha looked through the rules but couldn't find that, maybe it becomes visable after the required amounts have been reached.

Thanks.

Best get back to topic now, it's turned out very interesting there's links for things I haven't seen and I spent ages looking.