What are phys x accelerators ?

5tephen · 10 Apr 2006 at 18:46

kinggost said:
shame i cant fit these in between my sli watercooled cards or id have one

Just buy a USB one from here

(I wonder how many people hovered their mouse over the above word)

Angilion · 10 Apr 2006 at 19:38

Johanson said:
Theres always something new...

I wonder what will come next, AI processors maybe?

They're already well along in development. A company showed early hardware at a recent trade show.

Lanz · 10 Apr 2006 at 19:55

Goksly said:
So, imo, I dont see why having phsyics enabled on a system will increase the bandwidth to any extent to cause problems. Obviously objects will carry more information, but again, I dont see why this will increase bandwidth as the data can still all be client side with the exception of actions (players firing, moving etc).

I could be completely wrong, but I think it sounds right

Say for BF3 (or whatever) they have buildings that you can blow the bricks out of with a tank, these bricks will go flying depending on the angle of the shell etc. Well each of these bricks would have to be tracked by the server and also sent out to every client so the other people playing would see it. This would add massive load on the server, the more physics u have, the less players you can have.

The chances are Ut2007 online, GRAW etc would have the same physics for people with PPUs or not, its just people with PPUs will have a better framerate due to the load taken off the cpu. Thats the way I see it anyway. But i guess we'll find out sooner or later.

BubbySoup · 10 Apr 2006 at 20:52

I think you will find for multiplayer games, the physics will be highly non-interactive across the board, so people with PPU's will just get smoother frame rates and a better explosion with more debris. Neither the explosion nor the debris will have any effect on you or anybody else though, over and above the very basic interaction that can be afforded for people without PPU's.

dEl_fUEGo · 10 Apr 2006 at 20:52

Lanz said:
The chances are Ut2007 online, GRAW etc would have the same physics for people with PPUs or not, its just people with PPUs will have a better framerate due to the load taken off the cpu. Thats the way I see it anyway. But i guess we'll find out sooner or later.

The details for GRAW have been around for a while. Bo (the CEO) from GRIN (the company developing the pc version) has stated publically that there are 3 levels of physics in game: Medium, High (software based or from your cpu whichever you prefere) and Hardware (PPU). He also states that peeps playing with the ppu wont be unfairly hampered by larger splash damage etc that peeps have concerns about. He also quite clearly stated that there will be NO increase in framerate when playing with the added hardware too.

Please check for yourselves - http://www.ghostrecon.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=32145&st=15

Especially make a note of post #19, where you can see Bo's replies to the question "I'm very very curious how PC will run GRAW with and without AGEIA chip. Bo, plz, can you tell us (framerate example would be great) is there some improvement in framerate on same hardware with AGEIA's help. Thnx".

The thread i linked to is pretty long but if you can be bothered to read through it some ppu specific questions are answered.

EDIT: The above post is close as far as the physics go i think. Here's another quote from Bo - "Every effect we do is done in 3 versions, Medium, High and PPU version".

Angilion · 10 Apr 2006 at 21:07

Noxis said:
Just to clarify (and repeat myself) a second (or third or fourth core) on a CPU will NOT perform anywhere near as well as a dedicated PPU.

Statements such as "yea but another core will do this" are not accurate. People seem to be missing this is a DEDICATED PPU designed from the ground up for very specific calculations as such they are INCREDIBLY efficient at this one single job - while a CPU is designed to deal with many many different types of situations.

To help get this point across:

Does anyone think that a second core on a CPU could take the place of a GPU?

Not even close, not even when that CPU core has a clock speed more than 5 times higher than the GPU and is of similar complexity.

CPUs are general-purpose processors. They are not going to compete with a specialist processor.

Using the GPU for physics is a more interesting idea as the specialisation of the GPU has a fair bit of overlap with the specialisation of the PPU, but I don't think it will work as well as a PPU.

Lanz · 10 Apr 2006 at 21:18

The above post is close as far as the physics go i think. Here's another quote from Bo - "Every effect we do is done in 3 versions, Medium, High and PPU version".

Hmm these are for `effects` then, as in you'll see a really cool explosion with lots of things flying about, but in reality there wont really be solid objects in the game world that the server would have to track. Its purely for graphical effects, no interactive physics like loads of barrels and breakable stuff.

dEl_fUEGo · 10 Apr 2006 at 21:25

Lanz said:
Hmm these are for `effects` then, as in you'll see a really cool explosion with lots of things flying about, but in reality there wont really be solid objects in the game world that the server would have to track. Its purely for graphical effects, no interactive physics like loads of barrels and breakable stuff.

For GRAW that may well be the case, for other games or until the hardware is more widely adopted, my guess is as good as yours. I'm assuming the first few games that use it will make use of more physics 'effects' like you say. For instance, everybody may be able to shoot the door off a car, but those with the ppu will see the glass shatter realistically, door handle fly off etc, etc. Developers cant afford to alienate those non-early adopters.

Lanz · 10 Apr 2006 at 21:39

I think it will be hard to market these things. As with games, when your framerate sucks for a certain game, you buy a new graphics card, that's the way it works and that's why most people buy new graphics cards. But with these, you'd have to see in action, you'd have to actually be bothered to download movies of it. The marketing would have trouble reaching people who arent really bothered or care about such products (which is most average gamers)

Back in the day of voodoo1, you saw GLquake in screenshots and it looked totally amazing next to the netquake at 512x386 that everyone else was playing with. With this, screenshots aint gonna work for marketing.

dEl_fUEGo · 10 Apr 2006 at 21:49

Lanz said:
I think it will be hard to market these things. As with games, when your framerate sucks for a certain game, you buy a new graphics card, that's the way it works and that's why most people buy new graphics cards. But with these, you'd have to see in action, you'd have to actually be bothered to download movies of it. The marketing would have trouble reaching people who arent really bothered or care about such products (which is most average gamers)

Back in the day of voodoo1, you saw GLquake in screenshots and it looked totally amazing next to the netquake at 512x386 that everyone else was playing with. With this, screenshots aint gonna work for marketing.

Possibly, but the results of an added ppu are more tangible than a gpu upgrade in my oppinion, it was pretty hard to see the difference between SM2.0 and SM3.0, let alone 1024x768 to 1280x1024 etc, so visually there will be a lot more to 'see' instantly, even in screenshots (side by side comparisons) i'd imagine. If it does make games that much better (if only visually to begin with) then you can bet your grans underwear that word of mouth will be huge. Say for example 2 million peeps go and buy UT2007 in the first weekend, it will only take one guy with a ppu to say 'hey, check out this screenshot of this exploding building, shame yours doesnt (or cant) do that'. That will make peeps take notice instantly.

kinggost · 10 Apr 2006 at 21:58

if these are £200 is it worth it payin it (when they can be used in games) just for some bits flying around after someing blown up or better fire effects

Or is it just me getting the wrong idea of these cards

dEl_fUEGo · 10 Apr 2006 at 22:06

kinggost said:
if these are £200 is it worth it payin it (when they can be used in games) just for some bits flying around after someing blown up or better fire effects

Or is it just me getting the wrong idea of these cards

Is any amount of money worth the same to anyone? People will always upgrade their gpu's to attain higher ingame settings so if you wanna be able to play your game with everything on full and the game requires a ppu to attain that 'full' setting, is it worth it? Only you can answer that.

Untill the games come that fully utilise what these puppies can do it's hard to call, but the first few games that use the ppu wont be using it like the 2nd or 3rd generation of games, and that depends on how well they sell i guess.

kinggost · 10 Apr 2006 at 22:09

dEl_fUEGo said:
Is any amount of money worth the same to anyone? People will always upgrade their gpu's to attain higher ingame settings so if you wanna be able to play your game with everything on full and the game requires a ppu to attain that 'full' setting, is it worth it? Only you can answer that.

I have a high end system and i cant see the sence in payin it but suppose some people just willy wavers as wel

dEl_fUEGo · 10 Apr 2006 at 22:11

kinggost said:
I have a high end system and i cant see the sence in payin it but suppose some people just willy wavers as wel

I guess it's the same thing as to why you have 2x7800GTX instead of just the one, if people want it they will buy it. My guess is that peeps will buy it as it adds much more dynamics to gaming than any amount of gpu's could provide. But thats just me.

wellibob · 10 Apr 2006 at 22:15

Its an "add on" card , plain and simple. If you think its worth it get one, if not dont. If i get to see one, and plenty of games support it then i might be tempted. It can go either way.

dEl_fUEGo · 10 Apr 2006 at 22:20

wellibob said:
Its an "add on" card , plain and simple. If you think its worth it get one, if not dont. If i get to see one, and plenty of games support it then i might be tempted. It can go either way.

Absolutely correct. Ultimately it will be the games you play and the money you have at the time to determine whether you buy one or not. Some peeps may want two gpu's, others may be happy with one gpu and a ppu whilst the other lucky few will want it all. Some peeps will be happy playing everything they have on 'medium' settings etc, etc. The market will decide.

kinggost · 10 Apr 2006 at 22:25

i have 2 gtx cuz i have a dell 24" monitor at full res im not sayin it not worth it cuz i dont kno mch about these things but at the end of the day is it worth it or is bfg makein em to get more money out of people

if it worth the money i would consider buyin one

dEl_fUEGo · 10 Apr 2006 at 22:33

kinggost said:
i have 2 gtx cuz i have a dell 24" monitor at full res im not sayin it not worth it cuz i dont kno mch about these things but at the end of the day is it worth it or is bfg makein em to get more money out of people

if it worth the money i would consider buyin one

Untill the games start to come out it really is hard to say whether a certain purchase is good or bad for someone. My suggestion would be to sit tight and wait a few months and see if they sell well. If they do indeed sell ok maybe they will drop in price fairly soon which may make the choice easier. Next month there will be many reviews around the net so i'd look out for those too. Also check out the list of games that support them and see if there are any you like. My only piece of solid advice i can give is definately do not pre order one as that will be more expensive than waiting till release.

EDIT: No need to explain about the 2xGTX's, i wasnt implying anything negatively in my reply. I hope you didnt get the wrong idea.

kinggost · 10 Apr 2006 at 22:36

dEl_fUEGo said:
Untill the games start to come out it really is hard to say whether a certain purchase is good or bad for someone. My suggestion would be to sit tight and wait a few months and see if they sell well. If they do indeed sell ok maybe they will drop in price fairly soon which may make the choice easier. Next month there will be many reviews around the net so i'd look out for those too. Also check out the list of games that support them and see if there are any you like. My only piece of solid advice i can give is definately do not pre order one as that will be more expensive than waiting till release.

sound cheers mate i heard there was going to be a 256mb versin as wel what will the diff be. I have another peoplem as wel i have sli as you can probley tell its watercooled as wel with maze 4 lp blocks. So i have no gap inbetween the 2 cards where the pcie slot is (i have the dfi expert bord). Will there be some sort of pci verson for it so i can fit it in otherwise im not goin to think of even gettin one. Only just thought bout that.

dEl_fUEGo · 10 Apr 2006 at 22:41

kinggost said:
sound cheers mate i heard there was going to be a 256mb versin as wel what will the diff be. I have another peoplem as wel i have sli as you can probley tell its watercooled as wel with maze 4 lp blocks. So i have no gap inbetween the 2 cards where the pcie slot is (i have the dfi expert bord). Will there be some sort of pci verson for it so i can fit it in otherwise im not goin to think of even gettin one. Only just thought bout that.

I think the Asus 256mb one will probably be extortionately priced as most Asus products are. The initial release of these things is PCI only but there are rumblings on the net that a PCI-E X4 version will be available around xmas. It may be worth hanging on till then maybe as the pci version may be even cheaper at that time.

EDIT: Its hard to say how much better a 256mb one will be over a 128mb one, i'm sure reviews will clear that up next month.