What are your thoughts on CAMM2?

im4gine3

im4gine3

im4gine3

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Beside Computex, i don't believe we have heard anything since then other than some manufacturers will release motherboards with CAAM2 possibly around the same times the x870 boards are released.

Whilst i'm one of the many who are planning to upgrade when the X3D chips land, would it make sense to wait longer and get the latest gen of everything.. or is it getting over-hyped with no concrete release date?

I was thinking a 9 series chip with a b650e/x670e mobo since i've heard the x8xx series is not really ground breaking/not worth the money, but if CAAM2 is just around the corner too, maybe i should go with that instead
 
I like the idea of CAMM to get higher memory speed, but current AM5 CPUs work best at memory speeds that are already achievable wth DIMMs, so I don't think there's any reason to wait. I'm more insterested in seeing what happens with DDR6, as the faster memory chips become, the harder it will be to get them working in DIMM format.
 
The sooner the better:

I've heard interesting rumours that high core count Zen 5 is fundamentally bandwidth starved with a 128bit ddr5 5600mts memory bus.
So the 16-core might be even more disappointing.
On the other hand, the X3D versions should go a long way to alleviate this, especially since they will have an extra 40W of TDP to play vis-a-vis the Zen4 gen - where 7700X and 7800X3D both had a 105W tdp.
The interesting question is Zen6 where the default expectation has been that it would arrive on socket AM5 - with that same 128bit ddr5 memory bus:
If they finally bump up the core numbers to 16 per CCD i don't see how that can work on AM5, as 32-core simply won't be fed efficiently even by X3D and a memory speed boost to DDR5 6400.
So, either Zen6 is another 8 cores per CCD generation (with X3D practically mandatory), or we're looking at a new socket with a very different (and much faster!) memory bus.

Zen5 needs more bandwidth, CAMM2 would provide this if there was a way to mandate higher memory bus speeds on CAMM2 AM5 boards.
If this isn't workable, well, lets just say that Zen6 really will need it - on whatever sockets it arrives on!
 
jigger said:
Takes up too much motherboard real estate and that’s all at premium. Limits capacity, inflexible and creates greater e waste. More trade offs and downside than benefits.
Click to expand...
From what i've seen Camm2 has a smaller footprint than a traditional 4 dimm.
Screenshot-837.png

Screenshot-835.png
 
i don't know much about the inner workings of it but i like the fact it will make for much cleaner builds and easier to work with.. plus no more messing around with trying to find out which dimm slot works with what stick etc
 
Personally think it's an absolutely backwards step.

Yes it may be "necessary" for high speed memory, but at what cost? May as well just solder the RAM onto the motherboard in terms of what this realistically does for allowing "upgrades".



Yes it takes up marginally less board area than 4 DIMM slots - but for what reason? If board area savings are so important then either dropping to 1 or 2 DIMM slots saves space. Similarly if it was all about board area then SO-DIMM modules have been a thing for almost as long as DIMMs have too :)

It also saves height - but other than in laptops or small form factor machines, why does that matter? An ATX based PC has lots of other components that are higher (backplate, CPU cooler, PCI-E Cards), so why does the RAM also need to be flat?


Want to add some more RAM?
Oh wait - rather than just buying another DIMM/2 DIMMS, now you have to throw away that perfectly good CAMM module, and replace it with a bigger one.
No problem - I'll just resell the old CAMM module... except no one wants it because everyone wants a higher capacity one. Whereas in most cases older lower capacity DIMMs could be reused to make 4 DIMM sets etc in older machines to add more Memory.
I'd wager it's actually a non-consumer practice dreamt up by the RAM cartels in order to grab a slice of the "Apple" non-upgradable business model, whilst still purporting to give you the upgrade option (however impractical that now becomes)


And that's before even considering that the so-called "standard" already has so many different variations (CAMM2 vs LPCAMM2) that they aren't even necessarily going to be interchangeable between say your laptop and a possible desktop PC.
1723623649746.png
 
Armageus said:
Personally think it's an absolutely backwards step.

Yes it may be "necessary" for high speed memory, but at what cost? May as well just solder the RAM onto the motherboard in terms of what this realistically does for allowing "upgrades".



Yes it takes up marginally less board area than 4 DIMM slots - but for what reason? If board area savings are so important then either dropping to 1 or 2 DIMM slots saves space. Similarly if it was all about board area then SO-DIMM modules have been a thing for almost as long as DIMMs have to :)

It also saves height - but other than in laptops or small form factor machines, why does that matter? An ATX based PC has lots of other components that are higher (backplate, CPU cooler, PCI-E Cards), so why does the RAM also need to be flat?


Want to add some more RAM?
Oh wait - rather than just buying another DIMM/2 DIMMS, now you have to throw away that perfectly good CAMM module, and replace it with a bigger one.
No problem - I'll just resell the old CAMM module... except no one wants it because everyone wants a higher capacity one. Whereas in most cases older lower capacity DIMMs could be reused to make 4 DIMM sets etc in older machines to add more Memory.
I'd wager it's actually a non-consumer practice dreamt up by the RAM cartels in order to grab a slice of the "Apple" non-upgradable business model, whilst still purporting to give you the upgrade option (however impractical that now becomes)


And that's before even considering that the so-called "standard" already has so many different variations that they aren't even necessarily going to be interchangeable between say your laptop and a possible desktop PC.
1723623649746.png
Click to expand...

Pretty much all of this. Outside of very small form factors it’s a solution looking for a problem. The only area I could see a use would on an add in board. Upgradable GPU, DPU HBAs that sort of thing. That would fill an actual need and practical benefit worth paying for.

No, for main system Ill stick with my 2-32 memory slot dirty builds thanks.
 
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Armageus said:
Personally think it's an absolutely backwards step.

Yes it may be "necessary" for high speed memory, but at what cost? May as well just solder the RAM onto the motherboard in terms of what this realistically does for allowing "upgrades".



Yes it takes up marginally less board area than 4 DIMM slots - but for what reason? If board area savings are so important then either dropping to 1 or 2 DIMM slots saves space. Similarly if it was all about board area then SO-DIMM modules have been a thing for almost as long as DIMMs have too :)

It also saves height - but other than in laptops or small form factor machines, why does that matter? An ATX based PC has lots of other components that are higher (backplate, CPU cooler, PCI-E Cards), so why does the RAM also need to be flat?


Want to add some more RAM?
Oh wait - rather than just buying another DIMM/2 DIMMS, now you have to throw away that perfectly good CAMM module, and replace it with a bigger one.
No problem - I'll just resell the old CAMM module... except no one wants it because everyone wants a higher capacity one. Whereas in most cases older lower capacity DIMMs could be reused to make 4 DIMM sets etc in older machines to add more Memory.
I'd wager it's actually a non-consumer practice dreamt up by the RAM cartels in order to grab a slice of the "Apple" non-upgradable business model, whilst still purporting to give you the upgrade option (however impractical that now becomes)


And that's before even considering that the so-called "standard" already has so many different variations (CAMM2 vs LPCAMM2) that they aren't even necessarily going to be interchangeable between say your laptop and a possible desktop PC.
1723623649746.png
Click to expand...
Sometimes you need to take a step back before you can move forwards.

The faster memory becomes the more difficult it’s becoming to run higher speeds with traditional dimms, there are issues with signaling and cooling which will need addressing sooner or later as DDR6 and DDR7 speeds continue to increase.

Maybe camm2 isn’t the answer but one thing is clear that the traditional 4 dimm set up that we are all accustomed to cannot go on forever and we’ll need to move to new approach eventually.
 
I think a possible option could be a CXL style PCI-E card that would then accept one or two CAMM modules (even if they were forced to run at slower speeds).
At least then there would be a use for the older modules rather than just discarding them

Work is already being done on this type of thing for servers, with CXL/PCI-E based risers that accept older DDR4 dimms and present them via CXL as extra slower memory.
 
Armageus said:
I think a possible option could be a CXL style PCI-E card that would then accept one or two CAMM modules (even if they were forced to run at slower speeds).
At least then there would be a use for the older modules rather than just discarding them

Work is already being done on this type of thing for servers, with CXL/PCI-E based risers that accept older DDR4 dimms and present them via CXL as extra slower memory.
Click to expand...

But is it clean enough though? But seriously, that’s a great idea. Add in boards that allow you to repurpose out of service DIMMs. I can see a market for something like that.

Supermicro had something along those lines in the Sandy/Ivy days. IIRC you could expand system memory to 96 DIMMs. Well before CXL was a thing.
 
I don't care what they do, it just needs to be plug and play. I cannot be bothered messing with all the settings. If CAMM2 can do that at good speeds, then bring it on. I don't know why anyone would be bothered by the format, although it should switch over when RAM changes to DDR6 then its a clean break. The 1 module vs 4 thing will only affect a small number as running 4 sticks can be a nightmare so most will avoid it anyway.
 
Armageus said:
I think a possible option could be a CXL style PCI-E card that would then accept one or two CAMM modules (even if they were forced to run at slower speeds).
At least then there would be a use for the older modules rather than just discarding them

Work is already being done on this type of thing for servers, with CXL/PCI-E based risers that accept older DDR4 dimms and present them via CXL as extra slower memory.
Click to expand...

Actually have a working design for this on the drawing board. If I commercialise I’ll need contact details to send the royalty money.
 
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