What Car? Reliability Survey 2012

[miniyazz]

To be fair, these studies leave a lot to be desired. It is simply a fact that cheaper cars will tend to score more highly than expensive cars because not only is there less to go wrong, the tolerances can be looser, so they need repairs less often and when they do need repairs, they will cost less.
For example, an expensive car's interior panels may be manufactured to a template size ± 0.5mm. In contrast, a cheap car's panels may only be manufactured to ± 2mm, so they cost less to make.

Where this starts to hurt 'premium' brands in the reliability stakes is that because expensive cars are generally less reliable and more expensive to fix than cheap cars, and because premium brands have a disproportionate number of expensive cars, they will tend to score lower in these surveys than mainstream brands, even though class for class (e.g. Porsche Boxter vs Nissan 370z*), the reliability may be better than the competition.

*I have no idea how the reliability of these two cars differs.

 

[Raymond Lin]

To be fair, these studies leave a lot to be desired. It is simply a fact that cheaper cars will tend to score more highly than expensive cars because not only is there less to go wrong, the tolerances can be looser, so they need repairs less often and when they do need repairs, they will cost less.
For example, an expensive car's interior panels may be manufactured to a template size ± 0.5mm. In contrast, a cheap car's panels may only be manufactured to ± 2mm, so they cost less to make.

Where this starts to hurt 'premium' brands in the reliability stakes is that because expensive cars are generally less reliable and more expensive to fix than cheap cars, and because premium brands have a disproportionate number of expensive cars, they will tend to score lower in these surveys than mainstream brands, even though class for class (e.g. Porsche Boxter vs Nissan 370z*), the reliability may be better than the competition.

*I have no idea how the reliability of these two cars differs.

I want to agree but then I see Lexus near the top and Renault near the bottom...

 

[Dr Who]

No real surprises there to be honest, but it does make a mockery of some premium brand reputations.

 

[lemonade]

Not surprising to read there is a reason why the Japanese come on top, their products have actual reliability and build quality rather than percieved. The Germans have been scoring poor for quite a while now. The Japanese adopted the philosophy of total quality control and kaizan is part of their culture, that's why their products are finished to a high standard, there is even a noticeable difference in build quality between products made in Japan to elsewhere.

Also some bizzare posts in the thread, the one about Honda and elderly drivers made me chuckle.

 

[v0n]

We all know it's all about how the index is calculated. How can Skoda be more reliable than Vw, and both vary in repair cost. They are built with the same parts. How can Hyundai be more reliable than Kia, they are made with the same parts. How can Peugeot have higher reliability index than Seat but lower reliability index than Skoda? What are we saying - that when Spanish bolt Volkswagen gearbox to Volkswagen engine it's less reliable than when Czechs do it?

It's rubbish. It will be another one of those warranty company stats, where it shows BMW being less reliable than Fiat because it either is way more complicated or covers something specific and every dude with BMW expecting that something to fail will buy a cover against. Those kind of stats are not about being more reliable, they're about claims and overall cost. A BMW with broken plastic propeller in cooling pump that's covered by the typical warranty level purchased with BMW will generate lower reliability score and higher costs than engine in Punto developing new leak every two days if the gaskets aren't covered by the level of warranty typically purchased by second hand Fiat owners.

 

[miniyazz]

I want to agree but then I see Lexus near the top and Renault near the bottom...

I have no answers for you here


Remember I am talking in generalities though. A **** manufacturer still produces unreliable carp, whether it costs £8000 or £80,000. And an excellent manufacturer may still produce reliable cars even if they are very complex. The question is, where would Lexus feature if they made £8000 cars? And where would Peugeot feature if they made £80,000 cars? Would the gap be even bigger?

 

[Raymond Lin]

I have no answers for you here


Remember I am talking in generalities though. A **** manufacturer still produces unreliable carp, whether it costs £8000 or £80,000. And an excellent manufacturer may still produce reliable cars even if they are very complex. The question is, where would Lexus feature if they made £8000 cars? And where would Peugeot feature if they made £80,000 cars? Would the gap be even bigger?

Well, my personal experience is just 1 car, a Toyota and over 14 months nothing has failed, touch wood may it continue!

But then again my dad's 11 years old A6 also passed its latest MOT with no advisories apart from needing new wiper blades (which he knew), it did need throw up a near £900 bill last year though.

 

[Relentless81]

I was looking at this in work the other day

Nice to see the Koreans where they are but Hyundai offer a 7 year warranty and up to 100K, the survey only covers cars up to 8 years old so not sure how that skews the figures

Always good to see Honda and Toyota where they are, owned countless Honda's and didnt have any trouble with any of them other than body work issues, had my Toyota 2 years now and not a single issue and its 7 years old this year

 

[ChrisD.]

Not surprising to read there is a reason why the Japanese come on top, their products have actual reliability and build quality rather than percieved. The Germans have been scoring poor for quite a while now. The Japanese adopted the philosophy of total quality control and kaizan is part of their culture, that's why their products are finished to a high standard, there is even a noticeable difference in build quality between products made in Japan to elsewhere.

Also some bizzare posts in the thread, the one about Honda and elderly drivers made me chuckle.

You do realise that most Honda's are built in Swindon, right?

 

[Greebo]

We all know it's all about how the index is calculated. How can Skoda be more reliable than Vw, and both vary in repair cost. They are built with the same parts. How can Hyundai be more reliable than Kia, they are made with the same parts. How can Peugeot have higher reliability index than Seat but lower reliability index than Skoda? What are we saying - that when Spanish bolt Volkswagen gearbox to Volkswagen engine it's less reliable than when Czechs do it?

To be fair, it does make a big difference as what factory/country a car is bolted together IMO. So I can well beleive that a VW might be more unreliable than a Skoda.

And also I can understand the repair cost as well. For example, despite them been the same parts, because VW is the "premium" brand that you might be able to buy it cheaper from a Skoda dealer than a VW dealer. Also the labour charges might be much less as well.

 

[Greebo]

You do realise that most Honda's are built in Swindon, right?

And the Japanese bring their culture over here and instill it in our workers. I used to live near the Toyota factory at Derby and my nieghbour worked there. They were did keen on quality and treated the staff well with dvd's, big screen tv's, ps3 with games in the rest rooms etc and every 5 years ou worked there you got a tree planting ceremony with a meal.

The Japanese definitely influence wherever you are building the car.

 

[AndrewNR]

Sweet, my make of car gets #1 at something...

 

[Joe T]

To be fair Range Rover is in the right position. My bosses £64k range rover had the following happen

1st day. Rear brake caliper stuck on and wheel caught fire!

Month 1: Major suspension issues and warning lights. Back to dealers for two weeks. Calls in after one week to collect something from the car he left behind and sees hes body suspended above his chassis and axles sitting on the floor.

You can always find one example to prove anything. On the converse I had a brand new Land Rover Discovery for c.9 months and not a single thing went wrong with it.

 

[Begbie]

Typical Renault!

I agree though, these things are never accurate.

We should do an OcUK version. Would turn out pretty accurate, but then would rely on accurate information from everyone and some organisation.

 

[lemonade]

I have no answers for you here


Remember I am talking in generalities though. A **** manufacturer still produces unreliable carp, whether it costs £8000 or £80,000. And an excellent manufacturer may still produce reliable cars even if they are very complex. The question is, where would Lexus feature if they made £8000 cars? And where would Peugeot feature if they made £80,000 cars? Would the gap be even bigger?

Since Lexus is owned by Toyota you can take the Aygo as an example, a cheap no thrills city car, it might not have fancy materials inside, but the car is reliable and well screwed together. Prices have jack all to do with reliability and quality of construction. The French have made expensive luxury cars and they all have the same poor reliability.

We all know it's all about how the index is calculated. How can Skoda be more reliable than Vw, and both vary in repair cost. They are built with the same parts. How can Hyundai be more reliable than Kia, they are made with the same parts. How can Peugeot have higher reliability index than Seat but lower reliability index than Skoda? What are we saying - that when Spanish bolt Volkswagen gearbox to Volkswagen engine it's less reliable than when Czechs do it?

There is a disparity between factories. Just because it uses the same parts doesn't mean it will have the same level of construction quality. Even if you look at the Japanese brands over in America they have had their fair share of issues with American built models.

You do realise that most Honda's are built in Swindon, right?

Errr...yes.

And the Japanese bring their culture over here and instill it in our workers. I used to live near the Toyota factory at Derby and my nieghbour worked there. They were did keen on quality and treated the staff well with dvd's, big screen tv's, ps3 with games in the rest rooms etc and every 5 years ou worked there you got a tree planting ceremony with a meal.

The Japanese definitely influence wherever you are building the car.

Yeh, Toyota Derby, Honda Swindon and Nissan Sunderland are known to be one of the most efficient manufacturing plants in Europe and have won a few awards.

But there is some sort of internal dispute between Honda UK and Honda Japan at the moment which could see the Honda Accord removed from the UK line up.

Reading the survey list by sector there is some odd inclusions, for example the last gen Primera is in the top10 in family car sector yet these cars were infamous for unreliability as they adopted French electrics. The Xsara Picasso also makes it in the top10 for MPV's and these cars were made from cheese. I don't think these surveys tell the whole story but they give some indication on whats good and whats not and I don't think its a coincidence that the Japanese have been coming on top in reliability and satisfaction surveys for a decade or two in various country's.

 

[Firestar_3x]

Always take these with a pinch of salt for the following reason.

Someone spending 30k + on a car is much more likely to be fussy over every little issue than someone who's spent 13k on a French car. So does someone with a dashboard rattle in a BMW who keeps taking the car back for fixing make it less reliable then a Renault with electrical issues? I think not.

Buyer demographic plays hugely into these results IMHO.

 

[alex24]

I think it's a good as anyone can get to ranking them. You could spend years and millions on trying to get this exactly right in the specific circumstances you're interested in, but as a general indication it seems pretty accurate to me.

Waste of time debating all the little details, you have to assume that those holding all the data have the best perspective anyway.

 

[PMKeates]

The Japanese tend to do well in reliability surveys because their cars are typically made from basic parts.

Take the Lexus LS - 1970s-style LED displays for the clock and climate system, thousands of basic buttons, standard old-school gear selector, old-school cruise control stalk etc. - really basic switchgear. That theme is all over the car including mechanically. They are simply not the same kind of car as a Mercedes-Benz or BMW. They pioneer virtually nothing.

 

[hurfdurf]

^

#Lolbmwdefenceleague is a real thing!

 

[PMKeates]

^

#Lolbmwdefenceleague is a real thing!

Old Lexi are worth 3p for a reason