What should the consequences be to a GP practice

tres said:
Minstadave has the answer then. An investigation is key. The letter from the specialist, if it definitely arrived, would have been processed by admin, secretaries, pharmacist and the GP. Important to find out how the mistake was made.
Why didn't the patient question it sooner? Medicine should be a shared decision making process, long gone are the paternalistic days. I'm certainly not excusing any mistake made, but self ownership of a condition and management is crucual. That's why letters are sent to the patient, and are now written in patient friendly language without jargon.
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As you may know Clinical negligence is one of the areas I deal with every day and self ownership of a condition won't cut it when it ends up as a Letter of Claim and the NHSR get involved.
Any claim will all depend on what problems have occurred with the patient and if they have continued to have problems because of it.
 
I get double the dose of a prescription immuno suppressant drug I'm on every month by prescription, even though my Consultant has written to my GP on numerous occasions telling them the dose. I take one a day, the prescription says take one a day, the packet says take one a day, they give me 56 every month...
I just order them every other month now because I've got about 200 spare pills.
 
Dis86 said:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...gan-contaminated-surgeon-accidentally-opened/


Nice recent one. Surgeon covered up what he did, patient died, others harmed and yet is still employed.
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Yup. So what?

Guy made a mistake, we all do, in that profession it might end up killing someone, it's the choice you make and you gotta live with it.

Covered it up, well... I can't say I 100% blame someone for that given our current which hunt culture.

Better that than no doctors or nurses around anymore for fear of persecution let alone poor working conditions, oh wait......
 
BUDFORCE said:
Yup. So what?

Guy made a mistake, we all do, in that profession it might end up killing someone, it's the choice you make and you gotta live with it.

Covered it up, well... I can't say I 100% blame someone for that given our current which hunt culture.

Better that than no doctors or nurses around anymore for fear of persecution let alone poor working conditions, oh wait......
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His cover up led to the death of one individual and you think that's acceptable? Tell you what, next time - hope it's someone you care about then lets see your tone.
 
NVP said:
Now that was a bitter post.
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It's just at cus I called him out. The majority of people, (Harold Shipman's of this world aside)are decent people trying to do the best they can, if this guy saves lives where other people can't and occasionally one goes wrong then so be it.

Unless you are willing to train as a surgeon and do the same yourself really, you cannot criticize someone like that.

Which hunt culture inspired by people trying to sell stories.

We need more doctors and nurses not the other way around, sometimes people die its part of life, you can't save every one.
 
BUDFORCE said:
It's just at cus I called him out. The majority of people, (Harold Shipman's of this world aside)are decent people trying to do the best they can, if this guy saves lives where other people can't and occasionally one goes wrong then so be it.

Unless you are willing to train as a surgeon and do the same yourself really, you cannot criticize someone like that.

Which hunt culture inspired by people trying to sell stories.

We need more doctors and nurses not the other way around, sometimes people die its part of life, you can't save every one.
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You hardly called me out. You stated the deliberate actions of someone which resulted in the death of another are fine. As I say, let's see if you still have the same attitude if your wife/child dies because a medical professional lies.
 
Dis86 said:
His cover up led to the death of one individual and you think that's acceptable? Tell you what, next time - hope it's someone you care about then lets see your tone.
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Depends if he actually realised that the mistake he made had serious consequences. I'm not a surgeon, but I'm a doctor and I wouldn't know a small knick to the stomach would compromise the other organs.
 
Minstadave said:
Depends if he actually realised that the mistake he made had serious consequences. I'm not a surgeon, but I'm a doctor and I wouldn't know a small knick to the stomach would compromise the other organs.
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You wouldn't know that contamination with digestive fluids, bacteria and enzymes would damage organs? That's kind of worrying. Why do you think rupture of the appendix or gall bladder is so dangerous?!
 
Dis86 said:
You wouldn't know that contamination with digestive fluids, bacteria and enzymes would damage organs? That's kind of worrying. Why do you think rupture of the appendix or gall bladder is so dangerous?!
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I believe it was the stomach that was knicked iirc, which isn't normally highly contaminated like bowel wuld be, and the organism was candida, which is not a normal gastric contaminant. So it wasn't as straightforward as you make out.
 
Dis86 said:
You wouldn't know that contamination with digestive fluids, bacteria and enzymes would damage organs? That's kind of worrying. Why do you think rupture of the appendix or gall bladder is so dangerous?!
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The number of times I've seen a gallbladder nicked during a cholecystectomy.... it's just then washed out and everything continues as normal.

If the surgeon made a true mistake, that cost someone their life, the GMC would be all over them and a public inquest would have been held. All GMC investigations are publicly accessible.

The trust accepted responsibility and he is still working, which suggests that it wasn't a case of lying and covering something up. My guess it just wasn't policy to document everything, such as what happened in this case. If you've ever read a surgeon's notes - they really don't comment on the small things at all.
 
Uther said:
I get double the dose of a prescription immuno suppressant drug I'm on every month by prescription, even though my Consultant has written to my GP on numerous occasions telling them the dose. I take one a day, the prescription says take one a day, the packet says take one a day, they give me 56 every month...
I just order them every other month now because I've got about 200 spare pills.
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Thats good of you. Some would collect them monthly just for the hell of it.
I would call the GP surgery and speak to their pharmacist - they can adjust your prescription if the consultant letter is on their system. Much easier than getting the duty GP to do it!
 
tres said:
The number of times I've seen a gallbladder nicked during a cholecystectomy.... it's just then washed out and everything continues as normal.

If the surgeon made a true mistake, that cost someone their life, the GMC would be all over them and a public inquest would have been held. All GMC investigations are publicly accessible.

The trust accepted responsibility and he is still working, which suggests that it wasn't a case of lying and covering something up. My guess it just wasn't policy to document everything, such as what happened in this case. If you've ever read a surgeon's notes - they really don't comment on the small things at all.
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-50493248

Except it was as it's on record that he didn't record that he'd cut the stomach - something he was by all accounts aware of.

"The surgeon did not tell anyone as he should have done and the organs were transplanted into three patients."

"A serious incident report by NHS Blood and Transplant (NHSBT) said the surgeon had "no recollection of anything of note" when taking the organs, but had noticed a "small nick" on reflection which saw a small amount of stomach content spilt."

He didn't act on something he'd done/observed and it lead to the death of an individual.

I'm not clear whether there was a GMC investigation but clearly one of another sort did take place. Perhaps you could enlighten me as to why one wouldn't be carried out by the GMC when another medical investigation shows fault and the trust accepted liability and paid out? Seems a bit odd!

And yes - it's washed out and everything continues as normal. This wasn't washed out and the contamination remained. Why do you think they would wash it out if there was no risk?

Minstadave said:
I believe it was the stomach that was knicked iirc, which isn't normally highly contaminated like bowel wuld be, and the organism was candida, which is not a normal gastric contaminant. So it wasn't as straightforward as you make out.
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That's my understanding too. Why would you risk it though when potentially multiple people are receiving the organs?
 
Dis86 said:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-50493248

Except it was as it's on record that he didn't record that he'd cut the stomach - something he was by all accounts aware of.

"The surgeon did not tell anyone as he should have done and the organs were transplanted into three patients."

"A serious incident report by NHS Blood and Transplant (NHSBT) said the surgeon had "no recollection of anything of note" when taking the organs, but had noticed a "small nick" on reflection which saw a small amount of stomach content spilt."

He didn't act on something he'd done/observed and it lead to the death of an individual.

I'm not clear whether there was a GMC investigation but clearly one of another sort did take place. Perhaps you could enlighten me as to why one wouldn't be carried out by the GMC when another medical investigation shows fault and the trust accepted liability and paid out? Seems a bit odd!

And yes - it's washed out and everything continues as normal. This wasn't washed out and the contamination remained. Why do you think they would wash it out if there was no risk?



That's my understanding too. Why would you risk it though when potentially multiple people are receiving the organs?
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Again not a surgeon, but if it was something common place and wouldn't normally result in any ill effects, then you wouldn't want to bin a whole load of extremely precious organs.

I don't know that's the case, but given they're still working it would seem possible. This will all have looked into in great detail.
 
I've seen big abscesses leak during surgery, gallbladders that have leaked when being taken out, bowel (unavoidably) damaged during removal of tumours and adhesions..
Things are washed out and surgery continues. You said he didn't act on something, but there would have been a wash out. I'm not a surgeon but that seems to be the done thing. Wash out and continue.

You've underlined "as he should have done" - perhaps every surgeon should be detailing every last thing in the surgery. But it doesn't happen, full stop. But my knowledge of transplant surgery is non-existent - perhaps their rules are more stringent. I wonder if that is why the trust has taken responsibility. If the surgeon's probity was in question when a patient died, it would definitely be a GMC investigation.

I wonder if the 'on reflection' bit might have been after a while?
 
Minstadave said:
Again not a surgeon, but if it was something common place and wouldn't normally result in any ill effects, then you wouldn't want to bin a whole load of extremely precious organs.

I don't know that's the case, but given they're still working it would seem possible. This will all have looked into in great detail.
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Certainly agree about them being extremely precious but can you not see why that would be motive for the surgeon to omit what they'd done?

Anyway, by the by, you said people weren't getting away with killing people and this all proves that wrong. This guy did.
Worth noting if something I do, even by omission, kills someone I lose my professional registration and end up in front of a court likely facing a manslaughter charge and prison time.
 
Dis86 said:
Anyway, by the by, you said people weren't getting away with killing people and this all proves that wrong. This guy did.
Worth noting if something I do, even by omission, kills someone I lose my professional registration and end up in front of a court likely facing a manslaughter charge and prison time.
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One case where we don't fully know all the details doesn't quite equate to us medical professionals going around killing everyone.

What do you do, out of curiosity?
 
Was it an inexperienced junior doctor, being based at the oxford teaching hospital, who was unaware of the correct procedure and consequences of an incident of this type?

tres said:
What do you do, out of curiosity?
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Didn't you know Dis was an actor? He plays that dwarf fella on GoT
 
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