Whats a dece performing diesel hatch (with room for engine tweaking) for my next car?

[Jez]

It will have the same if not less max torque atw, and will have a much smaller area under its power plot. Plus its not as if a 200bhp petrol is going to have any issues with lazy driving, thats where low powered petrols are beat by diesels, but with this example its not really going to be an issue

 

[Phal]

At my local motorway place its about 4p difference, not much but does slightly negate the economy difference.

Ouch :S

 

[Chocki]

vectra facelift for 5k, not a chance.

The 1.9 CDTI 150 can be tweaked to 190 BHP just by plugging a unit into the wiring loom, no other mods necessary.

And don't go knocking it so much it's actually quite a good car, there is a world of difference between the older and facelift model vectra's, the complete suspension has been re-done and the car now handles. I can't belive how different it feels. vast improvement.

Service costs are cheaper than most of the competition, if anything is going to be the same, it's going to be the Mondeo for running costs.

I had a honda accord which was very dear but reliable I have to say except for the electric windows , Renault Laguna- OMG, hated with a vengance and cost more than twice as much for a service than the Vectra, and what's with the keeps blowing bulbs!, and at £18 each !!!
.

I can't comment on Volkswagen but I also couldn't get one as cheap as I got the Vectra for, I also believe servicing costs are high.

Vectras are good reliable work horses and comfortable and affordable, just stick to a facelift SRi and you wont be dissapointed.

 

[Pug]

The TDI (150 standard - 8 seconds to 60) can be done to 185 bhp - 7 seconds to 60.

7 flat? I find that REALLY hard to believe tbh...

 

[Demon]

It will have the same if not less max torque atw, and will have a much smaller area under its power plot. Plus its not as if a 200bhp petrol is going to have any issues with lazy driving, thats where low powered petrols are beat by diesels, but with this example its not really going to be an issue

Not sure I agree... but I don't understand why the diesel torque will be less at the wheels then a petrol??

Vauxhall 200BHP Petrol turbo 262Nm
Vauxhall 227BHP Petrol turbo 320Nm
Ford 225BHP Petrol turbo 320 Nm
888 CDTi 200BHP Diesel Turbo 450Nm

I appreciate that the torque on the diesel drops off as revs increase, but it's still more then the petrol even at high revs..

In fifth gear, the 888 CDti in 4th from 50 beat the VXR over a 1/4 mile, is that relevant?

I apologise if I've missed something obvious, I'm no expert in force dynamics..

 

[Gibbo]

The 2.5 Quattro is very thristy for a diesel though....

As for leaving for dust the 150 Astra, I think something is wrong there (Drivers?).. One of the directors has a 2.5 Quattro A4, and we've had plenty of 150 Vectra CDTi hire cars, and following him to a clients, we've had plenty of mini races, and even the Veccie is a nose in front upto about 80-90, then the Audi claws it back slowly.. until it eventually overtakes..

As for tunability, take your dads Astra to the VXR performance centre, and get it remapped.. 200BHP/450Nm, even with a 'slow' driver, I'm sure they will leave you for dust, and can still achieve 50MPG..

Anyhoo, back on topic..
For the 5K budget you want any of the following engines..
Ford TDCi - preferebaly 130BHP
Renault DCi - preferably 120BHP
Peugeot/Citreon HDi - preferably 110BHP

All are reasonably tunable via a cheap 'tuning box'.. and are all good modern diesels that can be had for easily under £5K..

Hi there

I think once rolling then maybe the difference between the A4 2.5 Quattro and Vectra would not be so different. As the Vectra is lighter and has less transmission losses. However off the mark I would expect the Audi to leap a car length or two ahead due to the better of the mark traction and like you say at 100+ speeds the Audi is just gonna pull away. Again if in the wet the Audi is gonna win hands down, same for when the corners come up as the Quattro is leaps and bounds ahead in the handling department over the Vectra. Plus when you compare the interiors and build quality the Audi once again wins hands down.

With both cars chipped I'd suspect similar performance again only advantage the Vectra has in my view is better MPG and cheaper insurance plus you get a newer car for the money.

If it was my money I'd be looking for a great example of an older low mileage 330D, quickest in a straight line and the twisties and I like the way they look.

 

[Slackworth]

As for leaving for dust the 150 Astra, I think something is wrong there (Drivers?).. One of the directors has a 2.5 Quattro A4, and we've had plenty of 150 Vectra CDTi hire cars, and following him to a clients, we've had plenty of mini races, and even the Veccie is a nose in front upto about 80-90, then the Audi claws it back slowly.. until it eventually overtakes..

To be fair it wasn't really a good comparison as mine is an empty saloon (plus me) whereas Dad has an estate with lots of junk in the back. There's no issues in the handling department either and this is supposed to be massively improved with 18" wheels which I'm still hunting for.

Our audi 2.5 rarely returns much above 32mpg.

I do "motorway miles" so I can easily return a minimum average of 36-40mpg on the DIS. Fuel prices can vary though. A lot of the local places to me around Derby only charge 1-2p more for diesel than petrol. The Shell Services on the A50 tends to be about 4-6p more.



Budget wise, for £5k, you've got absolutely no chance of getting a 1.9 120BHP - nevermind a 150. When Dad had his Vectra, a service was around £160 all in at a stealer. Mine was £185 from the local place but Audi stealers wanted £300.

 

[wassap]

On the topic of MPG, i have never got close to any of the claimed MPG figure, it probabaly is my driving style,but my last diesel (pug hdi 1.6) returned 42mpg when driven progressivly and 38mpg when driven hard, i managed to get 52mpg when driven sedately on a motorway.

And like jez the diesel fuel in my area is generally 3-4p dearer. when i work out my st-24 could return 36-37mpg when driven calmly, id still rather go with revs over torque, the cost saving isnt that much now i think, esp as the new range of audi fsi petrols are giving 40mpg +

 

[Gibbo]

7 flat? I find that REALLY hard to believe tbh...

I don't doubt that, I took one of these Golf GTI's with the mod to 180BHP out once with an m8 and it certainly got up and went well. Deffo in the 7.0-7.5s region and kept on pulling into three figures well. Still something like a Civic Type R or Golf GTi is still more fun to drive due to better revving and even more responsive engines.

 

[FTM]

A 200bhp petrol is going to be much nicer to drive though, it'll be slightly slightly cheaper, but worth it i am not sure?

I drove back from the lakes in my 180bhp petrol octavia vrs and averaged just over 40mpg..thats a mix of winding hilly roads on the a686 so lots of braking and gear changes followed by the last half on the a69 which i just put the cruise on and went home at a steady pace

I'm swapping to a new 'tavia vRS very shortly and am still sticking with petrol as the FSI engines are supposed to be pretty good on fuel as well..even though they are putting a 170bhp diesel into the line up...I simply prefer a powerful (but suprisingly economical) petrol engine

 

[[TW]Fox]

Hi there

I think once rolling then maybe the difference between the A4 2.5 Quattro and Vectra would not be so different. As the Vectra is lighter and has less transmission losses.

The Vectra is only 50k lighter than the A4.

 

[Jez]

Not sure I agree... but I don't understand why the diesel torque will be less at the wheels then a petrol??



In fifth gear, the 888 CDti in 4th from 50 beat the VXR over a 1/4 mile, is that relevant?

I apologise if I've missed something obvious, I'm no expert in force dynamics..

The engine torque is largely irrelevent when you have a gearbox, you cant compare the torque figures between the two as the petrol will rev that much higher and have shorter gearing.

And 50mph in 4th? Thats 3rd or even 2nd territory in most petrol cars if you want maximum acceleration.

Swings and roundabouts, but i dont think the diesels are due as much credit as they seem to get, they are not going to work out much cheaper, and you pay for the economy in how they drive.

 

[triggerthat]

7 flat? I find that REALLY hard to believe tbh...

Linky

 

[Demon]

The engine torque is largely irrelevent when you have a gearbox, you cant compare the torque figures between the two as the petrol will rev that much higher and have shorter gearing.

And 50mph in 4th? Thats 3rd or even 2nd territory in most petrol cars if you want maximum acceleration.

Swings and roundabouts, but i dont think the diesels are due as much credit as they seem to get, they are not going to work out much cheaper, and you pay for the economy in how they drive.

I'd say the oppo, people just don't give the new sports diesels enough credit..

In simplistic terms, using the Astra 888 CDTi SRi Vs Astra VXR
1/4 mile - VXR only just wins by less then a car length.
Around the track, nothing in it at all..
and the funny thing, its 45MPG Vs 30MPG, thats 50% less fuel consumption for 'similar' performance.. and it doesn't deserve any credit??

I'd wager the 888 Astra CDTi would either be fractionally in front or identical to a Golf GTI/Focus ST in a straightline and around a track...

 

[triggerthat]

To be fair, if I had the extra dosh, I'd buy a petrol engine. However, I would certainly consider a powerful diesel engine (which am playing on doing in the future) which would return enough miles to the gallon and still have fun with it. Obviously you are going to get performance petrol engines which can give you 30-45 mpg but you have to be gentle and that's not fun, personally anyway.

 

[wassap]

I'd say the oppo, people just don't give the new sports diesels enough credit..

In simplistic terms, using the Astra 888 CDTi SRi Vs Astra VXR
1/4 mile - VXR only just wins by less then a car length.
Around the track, nothing in it at all..
and the funny thing, its 45MPG Vs 30MPG, thats 50% less fuel consumption for 'similar' performance.. and it doesn't deserve any credit??

I'd wager the 888 Astra CDTi would either be fractionally in front or identical to a Golf GTI/Focus ST in a straightline and around a track...

Really, granted torque is by far the best aspect of the newer diesels, but id have thought the turbo petrol motor in the vxr would have trounced the cdti, would the economy on the cdti still be 45mpg round the track, again id have thought the petrol motor would get ahead due to the fact you can rev it for much longer, ie it pulls ahead everytime the diesel has to change gear???

I havent actually had a ride in the cdti, but have driven the honda 2.2 lump which is widely regarded as the best in town, and that wasnt that quick imo, the power band issue was still an annoyance

 

[The Running Man]

Yea, right up to the point you realise its not a hatch its a saloon

somtimes it makes sense to get more car for less money

 

[[TW]Fox]

somtimes it makes sense to get more car for less money

Sometimes, yes, but rarely if the car in question is a Passat, where the only thing you'd be 'laughing' about is the boatlike dynamics, ridiculous part prices and reliability.

But you've got damped grab handles, I guess

 

[Demon]

Really, granted torque is by far the best aspect of the newer diesels, but id have thought the turbo petrol motor in the vxr would have trounced the cdti

YOu would indeed, but it was on Fifth gear the other week.. the VXR only pulled a car length by the 1/4 mile and couldn't shake it at all on the track..
I've also driven the CDTi 888, and it feels bloody rapid, the pull is linear and seemless..

would the economy on the cdti still be 45mpg round the track

of course not, but then it doesn't really matter, rule of thumb dictates that the diesel will always be doing 40-50% more to the gallon for the same driving style..

again id have thought the petrol motor would get ahead due to the fact you can rev it for much longer, ie it pulls ahead everytime the diesel has to change gear

Gear ratio's are not that different though, standing 1/4's will be around the 100MPH Mark, both in 4th gear, so they've had the same number of gearshifts.. just at different times. 0-60 however, I'd say the diesels always require 2 changes, some hot hatches take only 1 change, so I'd expect a difference there, but tbh, if you drive like I do, gearchanges are done at lightspeed, so it doesn't have too much impact..

I havent actually had a ride in the cdti, but have driven the honda 2.2 lump which is widely regarded as the best in town, and that wasnt that quick imo, the power band issue was still an annoyance

The 888 CDTi Astra is a special edition built by the VXR performance centre, they take a 150BHP CDTi Sri, and remap it from 150->200BHP and increase torque from 320->450Nm.. they then put modified suspension/brakes/wheels on it..
The 2.2 Honda is a good engine, but it is lacking 60-70 HP over the 888 Astra.. that's quite a bit..

I've got the same remap on my Zafira, and it really makes a pronounced difference..

 

[blueboy2001]

6 cylinder diesels are nice but the economy suffers around town and at high speeds over a 4 cyl.

I've got a Mondeo ST TDCi with a remap and a K+N air filter and it will do 55mpg with the cruise set at 70mph, keep it below 85 and it will still return above 50mpg. I usually get 47mpg from a tank with a mix of all kinds of driving. I've no idea how much power its putting out but it will keep up with a mates 184bhp 330d from 50-130mph, but is a bit slower off the line. Great fun to drive as well - the controls are so quick and precise and there is almost no roll through corners. The only criticism I have is the front wheels can be a bit lively if you apply power a bit too early.