Whats the problem with Sandboxes?

[LateX'Dog]

I'd go with this.

In SWG, the quests were all the same (go here and kill x), no achievements, no progression (other than the professions you chose and trying to unlock Jedi), no storyline and no real 'goal'.

The entire player experience was determined by the people you met in the game and the effort the playerbase put in (resources, crafting, setting up towns, guild rivalry etc...)

If you found yourself on a server with low population you could find yourself flying on a speeder around an entire planet and not see one player.

I look upon SWG with very rose tinted glasses as the people I met made my experience amazing but I suspect if the Star Wars theme had been removed and I hadn't found myself amongst fun people, I would have dropped it like a hot potato.

You only have to look at the way WOW has adapted over the years to see the shift from Massively to Not-so-Massively (you can play on your own if you want, just give us your cash!). I suspect having an asset that is entirely dependant on the playerbase is a very risky investment in the publisher's eyes ...

I think this is it right here.

I think the industry has moved too far away from player gaming and too much into player experiencing.

So is gaming at the moment, not so much about playing a game as playing an experience now? Linear driven, lack of puzzles and complex mechanics, corridor shooters and linear stories.

It wont be for another decade until i think the industry will change, we are reaching or have reached the peak of gaming experiencing and we are seeing signs of gaming coming back into the industry, but at the moment the industry is generally made up of developers who have only existed in the experience and too few developers from the gaming era.

 

[Steampunk]

As the title says, what is the problem with Sandboxes?

Why are companies not making them?

I personally see more re playability, less developmental costs and less oversight.

But what am i missing? Why are we not seeing more of them, but instead seeing more theme parks?

You still need to give your players things to do, and it's easier for developers (and less risk to publishers) just to give players missions instead of doing a sandbox.

 

[krooton]

I think you guys are forgetting that the vast majority of games pre-2000 were incredibly linear, it's hardly something new.

Adventure games were as linear as they come, yet still loved.

 

[jasoncb]

I think you guys are forgetting that the vast majority of games pre-2000 were incredibly linear, it's hardly something new.

Adventure games were as linear as they come, yet still loved.

I do agree with this but around 2000 the games were starting to open up more, we had games like Deus Ex that should have been a pioneer for how games should be made. Unfortunately the casual gamers came along in masses and these games were never expanded upon and were considered to much work for developers.

The fact is its about pleasing the masses nowadays and not making games better. Every year we see games like COD released with a couple more gimmicks and they sell it by the bucket load.

If you ever read the Q & A from blizzard about wow then you realise they constantly refer to "We looked at the stats and this is what the majority of people want". Instead of designing the game how they want they rely on the casual gamer to tell them how to design their own game in fear they will lose revenue if they do anything different. Also I would like to say LFG, LFD,Flex etc are simply gimmicks to keep the casual gamer happy.

 

[Steampunk]

This is why games like Star Citizen and Elite Dangerous stalled out until their developers could go via Kickstarter and show that the publishers stats don't show the whole picture.

 

[C64]

My problem is jack of all trades master of none with a lot of sandbox

 

[Rezident]

I think you guys are forgetting that the vast majority of games pre-2000 were incredibly linear, it's hardly something new.

Adventure games were as linear as they come, yet still loved.

The word 'linear' seems to be used as a pejorative in games but it frequently offers the best experience. I've played Mods that were specifically anti-linear and it can be non-intuitive and confusing, which is not fun. Being obtuse just for the sake of it is not necessarily fun.

Even in sandbox games (and even in this thread) people say they want a story that they can progress (linear) as expected. Even a lot of the actions you want to do in a sandbox will be linear actions. A bit of complexity is always welcome to mix things up but you need a balance that works.

 

[JamesG87]

I find most Sandboxes such as GTA5, Skyrim have Huge Open worlds however they just lack content between town, cities etc.

Take GTA5 for Example, I am mainly talking about Online as there is truly nothing to do in the Open space apart from drive around and it gets so boring, fast

 

[Sleepery]

There are grades of theme park too though. Some mmos literally lead you by the nose from quest hub to quest hub, killing 10 rats or clicking 10 items all the way from 1 to the level cap. You can do it with your eyes closed.

Things like multiple starting areas, hidden quest chains, rewards for exploration, dynamic seasons and weather and dynamic events all help to mix things up. It doesn't have to be a total sandbox to feel less like a fairground ride and more like a living world.

 

[Destination]

Eve online is almost a true sandbox, open PvP (with consequences in "hisec"), almost every item you buy is built by another player. But it is a niche mmo.

Except bar ships there isn't much to build.
Stations and complexes have been present for how long now,7 or 8 years, and very little changed since their introduction. At least they couldn't e destroyed in the conventional sense.
Mine are still there, goodness know who controls them now.

 

[No1newts]

Sandbox is the best but as others have alluded too it requires your gamers to have imagination and drive to make things happen and to an extent design their own story.

Most modern gamers (who have a lot of time to spend) are the younger generation who want to be hand held, told what to do and when and most the time want it done for them so they can get shinies with minimum effort. There is (by and large) no will in today's player base to create their world despite the fact the fun this creates is so much more epic and defining than "killing" generic raid boss for millionth time only to be told you are the hero of the universe!!!! (Ignore the other million blokes I told the same thing too, I was lying, you really are the hero!)

Play eve if you want sandbox, but I think Eve's popularity shows what real desire there is out there for a real sandbox gAme and whilst eve has made of a success of it there's not the mass will for a huge AAA sandbox as it won't generate the revenue.

 

[Fenris]

They are making them...

Sandbox is just not the be all and end all of game environments, linearity works perfectly well as a method of telling a story, stop thinking that just because you prefer sandbox environments they are somehow automatically the best way of doing anything.

I would rather a game be completely Linear than be forced into a sandbox unnecessarily.

Most modern gamers (who have a lot of time to spend) are the younger generation who want to be hand held, told what to do and when and most the time want it done for them so they can get shinies with minimum effort.

Perfect example of the type of elitism and condescension this thread is dripping in. Grow up, people enjoy different things and you have no right to belittle them or treat them like some sort of lower class citizen for it.

 

[krooton]

In terms of people putting the effort to shape the game world and create their own experience, older gamers lack the time, and younger gamers lack the imagination.

I can't in to sandboxes for the older gamer aspect, I just don't have the ability to spend all weekend gaming any more.

 

[Newbie007]

They are making them...

Sandbox is just not the be all and end all of game environments, linearity works perfectly well as a method of telling a story, stop thinking that just because you prefer sandbox environments they are somehow automatically the best way of doing anything.

I would rather a game be completely Linear than be forced into a sandbox unnecessarily.



Perfect example of the type of elitism and condescension this thread is dripping in. Grow up, people enjoy different things and you have no right to belittle them or treat them like some sort of lower class citizen for it.

He's right though, as proved by your post

 

[No1newts]

He's right though, as proved by your post

Perfect example of the type of elitism and condescension this thread is dripping in. Grow up, people enjoy different things and you have no right to belittle them or treat them like some sort of lower class citizen for it.

It's not an insult or a belittlement if its true. A large portion of new gamers do prefer the handholding them park, there is no demand for a free rein free thought sandbox so what I said is entirely true. You may not like the fact you are this type of gamer (if indeed you are, though you just be spoiling for an argument) but not liking a fact makes it untrue is unfortunately not reality.

Chin up (now there's the condescension you were mentioning )

 

[LateX'Dog]

I find most Sandboxes such as GTA5, Skyrim have Huge Open worlds however they just lack content between town, cities etc.

Take GTA5 for Example, I am mainly talking about Online as there is truly nothing to do in the Open space apart from drive around and it gets so boring, fast

The difference with single player sandboxes is your reliant upon the content created by the developers, in a true player driven sandbox you make the content.

So going from 1 town to the next, you might pass a small player bandit camp for example in Skyrim. The player base fills out the content holes so to speak.

 

[LateX'Dog]

There are grades of theme park too though. Some mmos literally lead you by the nose from quest hub to quest hub, killing 10 rats or clicking 10 items all the way from 1 to the level cap. You can do it with your eyes closed.

Things like multiple starting areas, hidden quest chains, rewards for exploration, dynamic seasons and weather and dynamic events all help to mix things up. It doesn't have to be a total sandbox to feel less like a fairground ride and more like a living world.

But isn't that just polishing a turd? No matter how much you polish its still a turd?

 

[LateX'Dog]

They are making them...

Sandbox is just not the be all and end all of game environments, linearity works perfectly well as a method of telling a story, stop thinking that just because you prefer sandbox environments they are somehow automatically the best way of doing anything.

I would rather a game be completely Linear than be forced into a sandbox unnecessarily.



Perfect example of the type of elitism and condescension this thread is dripping in. Grow up, people enjoy different things and you have no right to belittle them or treat them like some sort of lower class citizen for it.

Wow, seriously aggression straight off the bat. Until your post people where making arguments for and against and having a respectful discussion. There is no need to bring your anger into this.

I have not said Sandboxes are superior and no one is being elitist or condescending.

 

[LateX'Dog]

It's not an insult or a belittlement if its true. A large portion of new gamers do prefer the handholding them park, there is no demand for a free rein free thought sandbox so what I said is entirely true. You may not like the fact you are this type of gamer (if indeed you are, though you just be spoiling for an argument) but not liking a fact makes it untrue is unfortunately not reality.

Chin up (now there's the condescension you were mentioning )

Newts, we can strike this one up to something i agree with you on.

Shocking i know

 

[HangTime]

Here's a few of the issues as I see them:
-"what is the point?" - it is difficult to market something which has no real objective, and by market I'm including stuff like getting positive reviews in the press
-Giving players too much freedom gives much more potential to expose flaws in the game design (engine, continuity, performance etc). Make things too open ended and you might make it too easy for a player to have a very boring / flawed / pained experience (e.g. something unexpected happens that makes 'progress' (however you want to define that) very difficult)
-It is difficult to know where to focus development effort, or rather, feel like you are getting good value from it. With linear games, you can focus on making that linear path an incredible, atmospheric experience with high production values. With a sandbox game, you could spend days developing something that 99% of players will never get to appreciate. This in my opinion is one of the main reasons why even seemingly 'open world' RPGs always have more focus on the primary quest arcs.