When are you going fully electric?

b0rn2sk8 said:
Touch a nerve? I’m well aware on how heat pumps work.

Rather than me revisiting my GCSE physics, I’d suggest you revisit what the post said rather than responding to something you thought it said.

I specifically said the same output, you have referred to inputs. A 4kw resistive heater and a 4kw heat pump have the exact same heat output. To reiterate, for a heat pump to heat something quicker than than a resistive heater, it must have a larger output.

The benefit to a heat pump as you say is the heat pump needs less energy input to achieve the same output.

As I said originally, the selling point of a heat pump is energy efficiency.
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Lol, looks like a nerve has definitely been cut in your case. I posted the heat pump in my car uses 800-1000w to do a job equivalent of a 2kw heater. Which is clearly stating “input” energy of a heat pump resulting in an output equivalent of a 2kw heater.

You responded with what you said. Whilst your statement that “they have the same output” being correct but you clearly thought I was sipping magical potion in what I posted. I suggest you are the one need to be a bit more careful in your response and read more carefully before declaring “magical truth”.

Also if you think a 6kw rated heat pump sucks 6kw of electrical power then clearly you don’t know how a heat pump works. The Mitsubishi heat pump being installed all over the place are rated minimum 6kw output yet the energy consumption is only 1.8kw.

Ecodan PUZ-WM60VAA Monobloc Air Source Heat Pump Product Information Sheet - Document Library - Mitsubishi Electric

library.mitsubishielectric.co.uk library.mitsubishielectric.co.uk

Sometimes a humble pie is just what you need.
 
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like the innovative co heat pump in the ID3 the 64k question is whether the charging time/cost you save offsets the price of that option ..
or, even, whether like with standard heat pump now in renault if it has become a marketing ploy.
CO heat-pump seems top trumps climate friendly option though
 
I had a heat pump and non heat pump ID.3 side by side for a week, the most obvious difference between heaters was literally the PTC starts heating the cabin instantly at max.. the heat pump took noticeably longer to get going maybe 30 seconds, but took about a minute to reach the same output, and generally also had a cooler feeling cabin for the same climate temperature, however, when you look at the energy usage of the car sat their with just the heating on with a 10C external temp, the heat pump ID.3 was .7kw less..

Tesla went from a PTC to Heatpump in the Model 3, the Heatpump had a much higher output than the PTC as well, but people did tests and showed the Heatpump takes a while to get going vs the PTC, then it overtook it due to the higher output spec..
Here's the extreme example at -20F:
 
SexyGreyFox said:
Me and the wife have had cars since 1975 and we both agree the MG4 is the best car we have ever drove so it's horses for courses.
I do compare it to a fast bumper car though :)



I agree with this, me and the wife granny drive and hopefully anywhere we are able to go will not need a stop off to charge.
A mate has just bought an MP4 Extended Range because he has a 200 mile round commute 5 days a week, I think I would have stayed with ICE.
He needs to charge around 7 hours a day to put the mileage back which is obviously do-able with 6 of those hours on Octopus iGo.
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If someone’s unlucky enough to have a 200 mile round trip commute 5 times a week, an EV is by far the best way to do it. Charge at home, save £120+ a week on fuel, plus all the other benefits plus saving about 3 tones of CO2 a month.
 
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Shadowness said:
Had my first experience of electric car ownership as I travelling to and rom Heathrow with my colleague who has an i4.

Firstly, my god they are quick! (In a straight line). But they have no ‘soul’ or personality. It is just a quick washing machine.

This also affirmed why I wont be diving into the EV market anytime soon (partly because I am not convinced EVs are the future).

First charge stop on the way down…….his BMW pay card thing (which was supposed to work on the charger) didnt work. So had to resort to getting another app, and paying via that. Took several minutes to sort out, before we even started charging.

On the way back, we had a much more successful stop. Payment accepted first time, and charged at about 130kw or so. But at 80p or so per kw (or whatever the unit is), it wasn’t cheap! I really only see EVs working if you charge at home, otherwise you may as well have an ICE car.

Also, at about 10% left (before we stopped at the aforementioned charge stop), we really were at the mercy of what charge points were on the way back, and were available. Luckily, the BMW charge map did seem up to date, as we tried a stop near a BMW dealership that said 2 of its 2 spots were taken. Alas they were.
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Given continuing to burn stuff is not an option, what non-EV option do you think is the future?

The only real difference between EV and petrol is broom broom noises.. and noise doesn’t make a car have “soul”..

Rapid charging is expensive but it’s rarely needed. Slower cheaper public charging is best for those without home charging and is cheaper than petrol/diesel (though nowhere near as cheap as home charging).
 
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pc-guy said:
Sometimes a humble pie is just what you need.
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Christ on a bike, re-read what I actually wrote in the original post which you claimed was completely wrong (it isn’t). You are way off base here.

A PTC heater can produce its full output immediately. A heat pump needs time to ramp up the compressor, get the refrigerant working and it’s got so much more thermal mass to get up to temperature than a PTC heater.

As I went on to say, it’s not really a selling point of either because that ramp up time is measured in seconds. Even if the heat pump has an higher output and would eventually overtake the PTC heater the difference in time to get the cabin up to temperature is negligible. So we are back to energy efficiency.

Ultimately the status quo the original poster is comparing is an engine that takes several minutes of driving to get the cabin up to temperature, moving to an EV, the heat is going to ‘feel’ immediate from either system regardless of which it is.


Also see:

Demon said:
I had a heat pump and non heat pump ID.3 side by side for a week, the most obvious difference between heaters was literally the PTC starts heating the cabin instantly at max.. the heat pump took noticeably longer to get going maybe 30 seconds, but took about a minute to reach the same output, and generally also had a cooler feeling cabin for the same climate temperature, however, when you look at the energy usage of the car sat their with just the heating on with a 10C external temp, the heat pump ID.3 was .7kw less..

Tesla went from a PTC to Heatpump in the Model 3, the Heatpump had a much higher output than the PTC as well, but people did tests and showed the Heatpump takes a while to get going vs the PTC, then it overtook it due to the higher output spec..
Here's the extreme example at -20F:
Click to expand...


Journey said:
He has a heat pump in his property, knows exactly how they work, and is very knowledgeable in general. Perhaps don't be so eager to jump on people.
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I’m still not even sure what has got pc-guy so triggered. The key selling point of a heat pump option in a car is still only energy efficiency which is the substance of my original post. It’s still not worth dropping £1000 on as an optional extra which was the implication of the original question.

Edit: correcting the auto correct
 
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They usually say a heat pump is nice to have not a need to have especially if it's an expensive option. Maybe if you do a lot of winter very long distance driving.

I thought a heat pump did a form of heat scavenging in an EV.
 
Went to Seat/Cupra today, test drove the Born, ordered the Tavascan lol.
Went for V2 without winter pack.

Looking forward to it, need to look at chargers now.
 
Journey said:
He has a heat pump in his property, knows exactly how they work, and is very knowledgeable in general. Perhaps don't be so eager to jump on people.
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He’s a grown man, doesn’t need your protection or ganging up.

If you got something to contribute intelligently feel free to add to the conversation.

those of us with gas boilers in their house doesn’t mean we know how to fix it or the inner workings of it.

Anyway point is that some of the heat pump systems in these EVs are complex. Not as simple as just cabin heating. Shouldn’t be implicated as useless across the board.

But putting it as £1000 option is a bit rich as what VWG autos are doing. Should be standard equipment. But they will just raise the price up tbh due to the complex nature of their heat pump system.

In the MEB system, the heat pump also replace the standard aircon system. On Skoda and VW forums, there are plenty posts about heat pump issues in first edition models which result in lengthy garage time. It ain’t simple as ripping out a condenser unit.

I think MEB is similar in implantation as Tesla just lack of manual control over how the control logic works. Ie manual battery condition. But they have added the feature in their latest iteration of software. But for those of bought prior end of 2023, we won’t ever get the feature. :(
 
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Shadowness said:
This also affirmed why I wont be diving into the EV market anytime soon (partly because I am not convinced EVs are the future).
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Be interested to hear your take on what you think the future is?

The only current alternative to BEVs is FCEVs, for which the infrastructure is currently non-existant.
Synthetic eco-fuels are barely an improvement, as you are still producing Nitrogen oxides and Carbon monoxide (even if the CO2 is theoretically offset) - so like PHEVs is just a bridging solution to BEVs.
Ideally the alternative would be the mass improvement of public transport, to the point where very small numbers of people need cars, but that is not happening in most of our lifetimes.
 
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