When are you going fully electric?

WJA96 said:
The batteries are already being recycled into new batteries.
Click to expand...
lots of promises - do the ev companies have responsibility to bookmark/put aside recycling budget in the original car sale (like I thought white good/tv manufactureres do)
https://spectrum.ieee.org/energy/ba...finally-takes-off-in-north-america-and-europe


PCP'ing cars is already half way to shared ownership - the asset isn't yours and you have to take according upkeep responsibility;
yes - only you are driving it on a daily basis, and maybe you eventually forget about the ownership when you drive it daily.
 
I’m not sure you can equate leasing/pcp to relying on a taxi/Uber style of service.

I think the answer to your question is no, there is no legal responsibility for them to take them back currently. For the forceable they are going to fetch a huge premium on the used market anyway.
 
jpaul said:
PCP'ing cars is already half way to shared ownership - the asset isn't yours and you have to take according upkeep responsibility;
yes - only you are driving it on a daily basis, and maybe you eventually forget about the ownership when you drive it daily.
Click to expand...


PCP or Personal Contract Purchase is a purchasing scheme. It's in the name. Like any finance product you don't own the asset until you've made all the payments. Just like you don't own a mortgaged house until you make the last payment. It's a form of Hire Purchase with a portion of the capital repayments deferred to the end of the finance term.

It's not like renting or leasing an asset. I/the company I work for use various different types of finance to put vehicles on our drives and we don't always have the option to purchase and no, that's generally not an issue for us.

Why is ownership actually important?
 
CaptainRAVE said:
Not at an exactly rapid rate though - sure it can be scaled up, but there are a fair few challenges https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56574779
Click to expand...

Why would it need to be scaled up any faster that batteries becoming end-of-life?

If all the BEV's on the roads now went kaput, how many batteries would there be to recycled? Answer: Not that many at all, since there are so few BEV's actually on the road, and given that the average lifespan is going to be over 8 years, and they most of them will be move on to a second life as a battery storage system or other high capacity low current draw applications for another 10-15 years, it's going to be 20+ year before we need anywhere near large scale recycling by which point there will be much competition for the business, just like the scrap metal industry currently.

As for the challenges, I am sure people said that about the railroads, or even steam engines, or bridges made of metal, or building giant cathedrals. Small minded people with zero vision don't help the human race progress do they?
 
jpaul said:
lots of promises - do the ev companies have responsibility to bookmark/put aside recycling budget in the original car sale (like I thought white good/tv manufactureres do)
https://spectrum.ieee.org/energy/ba...finally-takes-off-in-north-america-and-europe


PCP'ing cars is already half way to shared ownership - the asset isn't yours and you have to take according upkeep responsibility;
yes - only you are driving it on a daily basis, and maybe you eventually forget about the ownership when you drive it daily.
Click to expand...

Not all of the lithium can be re-used, most of it is wasted afaik. Last I heard it was something like 5% actually gets recycled. Notice how no one mentions how much gets reused on any of the properganda :/
 
Nasher said:
Not all of the lithium can be re-used, most of it is wasted afaik. Last I heard it was something like 5% actually gets recycled. Notice how no one shouts about that :/
Click to expand...

When and with who were you actually having a conversation with any meaningful credibility to come up with a number like that? No one is really worried about the lithium, there's not much to start with, its the Nickel and Manganese you want to extract.
 
Jonnycoupe said:
When and with who were you actually having a conversation with any meaningful credibility to come up with a number like that? No one is really worried about the lithium, there's not much to start with, its the Nickel and Manganese you want to extract.
Click to expand...

But you have to keep mining lots of Lithium which does even more damage to the surroundings than oil extraction. Plus the slave labour going the digging. Tesla pretends to be clean by just buying ******* carbon credits. The whole thing is a big sham.
 
Nasher said:
Not all of the lithium can be re-used, most of it is wasted afaik. Last I heard it was something like 50% actually gets recycled. Notice how no one mentions how much gets reused on any of the properganda :/
Click to expand...

I fixed that for you. It's 50% at the moment but it's going up with 80% plus being feasible in trial processes at the moment.
 
Nasher said:
But you have to keep mining lots of Lithium which does even more damage to the surroundings than oil extraction. Plus the slave labour going the digging. Tesla pretends to be clean by just buying ******* carbon credits. The whole thing is a big sham.
Click to expand...
Have to mine petrol too... single use, no residual issues when you vapourise a fuel of course...

Cobalt has been used for year to refine fuel to take sulphur out in a single use process by the same DRC children. You make a really valid point there : Its brilliant that the EV market raising this challenge and problem has now raised the ethical concern to ensure appropriate sourcing of the materials.... something that was overlooked for years in the oil industry "but no one shouts about that" (i see you have now edited post)

Tesla BUYING credits? No they make money SELLING theirs!

Keep the cliches coming, its like shooting ducks.
 
Last edited:
WJA96 said:
I fixed that for you. It's 50% at the moment but it's going up with 80% plus being feasible in trial processes at the moment.
Click to expand...

No it's "80% of lithium-ion materials". Not the lithium itself. Clever wording.

So they take a small amount of lithium, the expensive metals, the plastic. The rest gets sent to...I dunno, Turkey to be set on fire or something.
 
Nasher said:
But you have to keep mining lots of Lithium which does even more damage to the surroundings than oil extraction. Plus the slave labour going the digging. Tesla pretends to be clean by just buying ******* carbon credits. The whole thing is a big sham.
Click to expand...

But that's the same child slave labour that's mining Lithium for your cell phone battery. Do you have a cell phone?
 
WJA96 said:
But that's the same child slave labour that's mining Lithium for your cell phone battery. Do you have a cell phone?
Click to expand...

He talking about Colbalt.

Nasher said:
No it's "80% of lithium battery materials". Not the lithium itself. Clever wording.

So they take a small amount of lithium, the expensive metals, the plastic. The rest gets sent to...I dunno, Turkey to be set on fire or something.
Click to expand...

You do know a typical EV has like 10kg of lithium don.t you?
 
Jonnycoupe said:
He talking about Colbalt.
Click to expand...

No, he definitely said Lithium. And there is an Amnesty International report about child slave labour mining all sorts of metals including lithium. I suspect it's pretty much how it's done. I am surprised that it's not more widely reported though. You'd have thought child slave labour would be high on many people's lists if things to stop.
 
Journey said:
Why would it need to be scaled up any faster that batteries becoming end-of-life?
Click to expand...

Well they aren’t currently meeting even existing demand.

The final part of your argument is entirely predictable and assumes that electric is the only viable solution. It’s a stop gap at best and a poor one currently.
 
Jonnycoupe said:
Sorry yeah you are right, I should have said of course hes trying to allude to colbalt but making stuff up in a fury of ranting cliches ... on his iPhone :cry:
Click to expand...

I agree, and I think it's something we should all be made aware of and trying to do something about. But I'm not hypocritical enough to try and pretend that I don't use this stuff. And I'm sure it's loads of things - blood diamonds, precious and semi-precious metals etc.
 
WJA96 said:
But that's the same child slave labour that's mining Lithium for your cell phone battery. Do you have a cell phone?
Click to expand...
seems the tesla recycling plant is in shanghai, so not staffed by the poor Uyghur.

WJA96 said:
Why is ownership actually important?
Click to expand...
being able to do what you want with it - upgrade/fix the audio system, repair a few pain nicks yourself, change cabin air filter / oil ....
those are part of the enjoyment/pleasure of owning something - emotional investment. (like bicycle/espresso machine/skis ....)
 
CaptainRAVE said:
Well they aren’t currently meeting even existing demand.
Click to expand...

Yep, sadly the number of people who throw away mobile phones, laptops etc. all with Li-ion batteries in is staggering, not to mention the waste produced by the manufacturing plants that isn't recycled. There is little to no actual BEV batteries being recycled though, as there are so few that have reached end-of-life since even minor adoption didn't start until 2011, so if you read the article you quoted you'd see the car waste isn't the issue right now, but would be if no plan was put in place.

So this demand you speak of is not to do with cars, but the Li-ion from the like of you, and your phone or computer etc.

CaptainRAVE said:
The final part of your argument is entirely predictable and assumes that electric is the only viable solution. It’s a stop gap at best and a poor one currently
Click to expand...

Ah didn't catch your edit. Electric is the solution, but you probably are thinking more of the actual energy storage medium, which could be one of many things. What are you proposing instead of electric? :)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom