EV general discussion

[danlightbulb]

EDIT: As per your above comment, how on earth is a single 20 minute stop not viable?! You need to accept that things will need a slightly new mindset when we stop being so reliant on petrol.

It won't be 20 minutes.

It takes 20 minutes to do the charge. BUt there will be a queue of people. Normal throughput in a petrol station is what, maybe 5 minutes per car with 6-10 pumps? So for the same throughput you'd need 30-40 charging stations at each location.

What happens when you arrive at your planned charging location to find all the stations full? You wait 10-20 minutes, no-one leaves. They are all inside drinking coffee or whatever. You wait another 20 minutes, queues are building up. No-one leaves. Its a recipe for a complete mess and massively delayed journeys. The independence that a tank of fuel gives you is completely destroyed.

 

[b0rn2sk8]

It won't be 20 minutes.

It takes 20 minutes to do the charge. BUt there will be a queue of people. Normal throughput in a petrol station is what, maybe 5 minutes per car with 6-10 pumps? So for the same throughput you'd need 30-40 charging stations at each location.

Your applying petrol logic to an EV problem. Your forgetting that most people will not charge at public starters the vast majority of the time, especially rapid ones.

You can’t fill your petrol car at home/work/when parked but you can an EV.

Yes the number of charging points need to increase but only a fraction of cars are EV right now.

Just look at Norway as an example of a country that is years ahead of this issue. There are rapid charging hubs everywhere and they stretch all the way and well into the artic circle which is vastly more remote than north Wales. There are also slow AC chargers/3pin plugs everywhere and they are becoming ubiquitous.

 

[danlightbulb]

Your applying petrol logic to an EV problem. Your forgetting that most people will not charge at public starters the vast majority of the time, especially rapid ones.

You can’t fill your petrol car at home/work/when parked but you can an EV.

Yes the number of charging points need to increase but only a fraction of cars are EV right now. Just look at Norway as an example of a country that is years ahead of this issue. There are rapid charging hubs everywhere and they stretch all the way and well into the attic circle which is vastly more remote than north Wales.

Not sure about that you know. Most shopping centres etc now that have a handful of charge points - they are always occupied. I think people will always occupy them to top up that last 5% even if they dont need it. What happens when someone is off shopping for 2 hours, leaves their car in the charging station occupying that spot, even though it is full already? A waste of a charging point that someone else might need. It would be like parking at a petrol pump and leaving the car there.

And how much are we going to be charged for those fast 20 minute charges, that people NEED to continue their journeys. I'd bet premium prices for sure.

 

[mjt]

I would say the person who didn't hear the silent EV coming might think differently.

I have an EV that was built prior to the law mandating low speed engine noise for all EVs. It is an E-Tron which is a very large EV and I have still had a few occassions when the car is so slow and silent that pedestirans don't notice. People walking in front of me in car parks, or small narrow streets with parked cars either side etc. These people generally rely on hearing a car rather than seeing it.

I get it happen all the time when I pickup my son from school. Most of the kids crossing the road don't look, relying on their ears, and as i'm pulling out of the car park they step out in front of my car, which is doing between 1-5mph.
I'm pretty much aware of the issue so am super careful not to run a child over.

Impossible. Never happened. THE NOISE MUST BE STOPPED

 

[squerble]

It won't be 20 minutes.

It takes 20 minutes to do the charge. BUt there will be a queue of people. Normal throughput in a petrol station is what, maybe 5 minutes per car with 6-10 pumps? So for the same throughput you'd need 30-40 charging stations at each location.

If you want to talk about the current level of charging infrastructure, sure. In the next 5 years there will be an explosion of charging sites popping up, and the problem will fade into existence, and that's just for rapid charging. What about when there's just a "slow" 7kW charging post per-parking space? You'll park up for 2 hours, and in that time you'll add in 14kWh to the battery. Even a middling economy EV will do about 3.75mi/kWh, so you've just added another 50+ miles while you were busy looking in shop windows and getting a bite to eat.

We will never, ever replace the slap-dash way of pumping liquid for 5 minutes when it comes to EVs. But for you to write off EVs because of that is quite pig-headed to be frank. You've completely dismissed home charging and destination charging (such as the car park example above). The charging infrastructure right now is not there, and anyone who says otherwise is lying. EVs are still in the early adopter phase, but rapid change will be coming over the next couple of years, so you need to see past the current level of charging per car.

I want to expand on your earlier example. 300 miles needed on a round trip; 120 each way, and 60 miles bimbling around in the middle. My Kona will do about 270 over summer, let's just say 260.

• Leave home at 100% having charged overnight - 140 miles range left after the trip.
• 60 miles bimbling around - 80 miles range left.
• 20 minutes rapid charge @ 70kW (Kona is a slow charger) - range now back up to 190 miles. That still leaves 70 miles leeway/contingency.

It's that easy. And that's on a slow charging car - what happens on a fast charging car as all the newer EVs are? With some charging at 150kW all the way up to 90% SOC, you're adding 200 miles range in that 20 minutes.

 

[danlightbulb]

If you want to talk about the current level of charging infrastructure, sure. In the next 5 years there will be an explosion of charging sites popping up, and the problem will fade into existence, and that's just for rapid charging. What about when there's just a "slow" 7kW charging post per-parking space? You'll park up for 2 hours, and in that time you'll add in 14kWh to the battery. Even a middling economy EV will do about 3.75mi/kWh, so you've just added another 50+ miles while you were busy looking in shop windows and getting a bite to eat.

We will never, ever replace the slap-dash way of pumping liquid for 5 minutes when it comes to EVs. But for you to write off EVs because of that is quite pig-headed to be frank. You've completely dismissed home charging and destination charging (such as the car park example above). The charging infrastructure right now is not there, and anyone who says otherwise is lying. EVs are still in the early adopter phase, but rapid change will be coming over the next couple of years, so you need to see past the current level of charging per car.

I want to expand on your earlier example. 300 miles needed on a round trip; 120 each way, and 60 miles bimbling around in the middle. My Kona will do about 270 over summer, let's just say 260.

• Leave home at 100% having charged overnight - 140 miles range left after the trip.
• 60 miles bimbling around - 80 miles range left.
• 20 minutes rapid charge @ 70kW (Kona is a slow charger) - range now back up to 190 miles. That still leaves 70 miles leeway/contingency.

It's that easy. And that's on a slow charging car - what happens on a fast charging car as all the newer EVs are? With some charging at 150kW all the way up to 90% SOC, you're adding 200 miles range in that 20 minutes.

I get your point but I struggle to see the kind of infrastructure you're talking about in the locations that I visit.

We could all come up with scenarios that will be difficult even with good infrastructure. For 'most' people its fine, they sit at home on their lazy fat asses and it would work - but for those of us out and about in remote destinations these things will be incredibly difficult.

We're going to need to have some restrictions in place on these fast charging points that only allow people to charge to 80% in them, to free them up for the next person. If you don't move your car after 20 minutes you get fined.

 

[b0rn2sk8]

Not sure about that you know. Most shopping centres etc now that have a handful of charge points - they are always occupied. I think people will always occupy them to top up that last 5% even if they dont need it. What happens when someone is off shopping for 2 hours, leaves their car in the charging station occupying that spot, even though it is full already? A waste of a charging point that someone else might need.

Locals use free chargers because they are free or have no overstay fees even if they don’t need them because they are free (in a shock to no one). They are free to encourage early adoption and largely subsidised by public money.

Some private enterprises offer free charging to attract a certain type of customer, early EV adopters tended to have a fatter wallet than your average punter (less so these days).

Neither of the above things are sustainable and providers will need to monetise this infrastructure at some point or they’ll go out of business too, as soon as that starts, you’ll soon see locals stop using free posts and those using them will quickly move their cars on when done or risk an overstay fee. Just look what happened following the 5p bag charge, literally overnight bag usage halved.

I get your point but I struggle to see the kind of infrastructure you're talking about in the locations that I visit.

We could all come up with scenarios that will be difficult even with good infrastructure. For 'most' people its fine, they sit at home on their lazy fat asses and it would work - but for those of us out and about in remote destinations these things will be incredibly difficult.

Bit again, anywhere where there is electricity, a charge point can be installed. The charge point doesn’t need to be advanced or fancy or even high powered. A reasonably efficient car can regain 10 miles range of a 3 pin plug per hour, that’s fine for an overnight charge in the middle of a field.

 

[lordrobs]

We could all come up with scenarios that will be difficult even with good infrastructure. For 'most' people its fine, they sit at home on their lazy fat asses and it would work - but for those of us out and about in remote destinations these things will be incredibly difficult.

Jeez, ok Bear Grylls. No one is forcing you to buy an EV that you simply must charge in the middle of Riggs Moor.

 

[[TW]Fox]

No one is forcing you to buy an EV

Isn't the point that actually yes, they are? This isn't a natural move to a better tech thats available to those who want it, it's effectively forced by legislation. If he wants to buy a new car after 2030, he will have no choice. If he wants to buy one before 2030, he will have far less choice than he did as manufacturers start to reduce their ranges in anticipation of the ban.

Whether he likes it or not, he's going to be forced to eventually buy an EV regardless of whether it will work for him.

 

[Jonnycoupe]

By the same notion its not really going to stop him doing his hobby either. So everyone should just calm down on the whatifs

 

[Journey]

You can literally smell the fear of some people from trying or ever merely entertaining a BEV.

I've charged my car in a field using a commando socket, I've charged in in a pub car park from a 3-pin plug, I charged it at a friends house on a 3-pin, I've charged it at home, in supermarket car park, at an MSA, in the middle of nowhere in Scotland, at the beach front (in the North East no less), the list goes on. Of course places are getting busier as more people start buying BEV's but more charge points are being added month on month than ever before.

 

[[TW]Fox]

You can literally smell the fear of some people

This is a natural consequence of forcing change onto people rather than letting them decide for themselves. Happens everywhere, not just in EV.

You'd find it much less if EV was given the time to demonstrate its simply better. People would then feel like they are making the choice for themselves to get something better.

 

[Journey]

This is a natural consequence of forcing change onto people rather than letting them decide for themselves. Happens everywhere, not just in EV.

You'd find it much less if EV was given the time to demonstrate its simply better. People would then feel like they are making the choice for themselves to get something better.

Oh you again.

They've got until 2030, and the car they own/use isn't suddenly going to vanish, unless you know better, like it seems you usually do.

It is also lack of education, stupid newspaper articles and utter FUD that you read on forums and Faceache that makes people fear something. People fear the unknown, we all know that, how often to people actually try to form an un-biased opinion, not that often.

 

[Puzzled]

I would have thought once EV market share is up that most car parks would be looking to add as many charger points as they can. Nice little revenue stream for them to go on top of parking fees.

Service stations will need a lot of charging points though, I don't mind stopping for 20 mins and getting a coffee but if that turns into 40 mins or an hour then it would be frustrating. That said it would only be a few trips a year where that would be an issue.

 

[FerretBoy]

I agree to some extent (to the change comments), but sadly most people fear change, even when it would benefit them.

Anyhow Norway is a good example of the near future, as stated above.

Also you do get fined if you stay too long at fast chargers already. My car will also pick ones that aren't too busy. It will also soft limit me to 80%.

 

[throwaway4372]

It doesn't benefit them to pay 10k ish more for the car than the petrol equivalent.

 

[Nasher]

Yep and with a lot of petrol cars going up in value now (especially the fun ones) it makes even less sense. My 2nd car is appreciating enough to pay for my cheap daily car's fuel

 

[FerretBoy]

It doesn't benefit them to pay 10k ish more for the car than the petrol equivalent.

I'd argue mine was cheaper than the ICE equivalent. But anyhow it's not hard to imagine how to solve that, just look at Norway

 

[squerble]

Also you do get fined if you stay too long at fast chargers already. My car will also pick ones that aren't too busy. It will also soft limit me to 80%.

I'm guessing you have a Tesla, by this comment? Most (all?) other fast chargers I've seen don't fine based on stay. Now if the entire country had a similar system, that would be just dandy.

 

[[TW]Fox]

Oh you again.

Hi there!

They've got until 2030, and the car they own/use isn't suddenly going to vanish, unless you know better, like it seems you usually do.

You're missing the point - there is a legal barrier to people such as him continuing to do what it is they do. The car he owns won't vanish but it's still a major change for him - its future value is uncertain and perhaps he is the sort of person who doesn't run older cars so would be looking to buy another. Regardless of the merits of the situation, this sort of forced changed, which it is, causes anxiety amongst people (Remember, my reply was to you expressing surprise that people fear change).

how often to people actually try to form an un-biased opinion, not that often.

How true