EV general discussion

[DarrenM343]

Had my first long trip away after 20 months of i3 ownership and all went to plan. Chargers all working and didn't have to queue although while I was charging at one place there was a brief period where both chargers were in use and this was the case on the way back, both chargers occupied for a short period again.
Gridserve Exeter have a great setup. Twelve 350kW and four 50kW as well as 16 brand new Tesla chargers currently behind barriers. I used a 350kW unit as I didn't see the 50's until I popped in to use the facilities. I also used an Instavolt twice in a McDonalds carpark which was good too. Was a bit concerned when I saw the time remaining reach zero when <80% as I seemed to remember someone getting a fine for overstaying at a McDOnalds so thought it was a "your time's up" counter rather than time left to charge battery to full or 80%, but it when it reached 0 then it just reset to 43mins left.

Massive amount of work to do regarding expanding the charging infrastructure. Away from my main route there were none whatsoever as far as I saw. Saw lots of little towns with businesses that could easily have a couple installed. At my destination, a small West Berks town there were just a few of those Ubitricity street chargers but the parking bays for them were not dedicated to EV charging. i knew this in advance so made sure I had enough charge to get back to a DC charger.

 

[ICDP]

They compete in two different classes so the differences are to be expected. It will be the upcoming Q6 that will be the better comparison, especially so when the fat Etron goes even further upmarket.

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You are absolutely correct but only if you are looking at the base spec low end Q4. At the time when I specced up a Q4 50 Sportback Vorsprung it turned out only marginally less expensive than a basic spec I-Pace SE. When I checked the salary sacrifice leasing prices the I-Pace SE and even HSE were cheaper. Though even in basic spec the SE had more kit on balance than a fully specced Q4. When I queried with the NHS Leasing company (salary sacrifice) I was told that the residuals on the I-Pace were better.

In the end I got an I-Pace HSE for a bit less cost and a lot more kit than the Q4 50 Sportback Vorsprung I had on order. Ordered in Jan and delivered in May.

 

[gailjon]

You are absolutely correct but only if you are looking at the base spec low end Q4. At the time when I specced up a Q4 50 Sportback Vorsprung it turned out only marginally less expensive than a basic spec I-Pace SE. When I checked the salary sacrifice leasing prices the I-Pace SE and even HSE were cheaper. Though even in basic spec the SE had more kit on balance than a fully specced Q4. When I queried with the NHS Leasing company (salary sacrifice) I was told that the residuals on the I-Pace were better.

In the end I got an I-Pace HSE for a bit less cost and a lot more kit than the Q4 50 Sportback Vorsprung I had on order. Ordered in Jan and delivered in May.

I think you made the right decision. The i Pace looks lovely, especially inside.

 

[ICDP]

I think you made the right decision. The i Pace looks lovely, especially inside.

I do find it odd that people are willing to wait over a year on a car that has nothing special going for it. I mean the Q4 is fine but it is not wait a year fine.

For example the Volvo XC40, C40, Polestar 2 are all available in 3-5 months delivery. Having tested a C40 recently and placed an order for my wife, it was far nicer inside with a more premium feel. The Q4 has scratchy plastic in places it really shouldn't for the price.

It isn't confirmation bias, because like I said I still had my older E-Tron 50 when I got the Q4 loaner for a day. It was an eye opener outside a short 30 minute test drive and I was delighted when the lease company told me my Q4 was delayed until end of 2022 (I ordered in Sep 2021). I was even more delighted when I was told I would not be charge a cancellation fee.

 

[b0rn2sk8]

I was never really impressed with the Q4, it always felt like a tarted up ID.4. While the Q4 and ID.4 are ‘fine’, you expect more and it’s competitors have outdone them.

Talking about deliver times, it seems you can get a Model Y now before the end of the year.

 

[ICDP]

I was never really impressed with the Q4, it always felt like a tarted up ID.4. While the Q4 and ID.4 are ‘fine’, you expect more and it’s competitors have outdone them.

Talking about deliver times, it seems you can get a Model Y now before the end of the year.

There are plenty of EVs that can be delivered in less 5 months or less. Though even if a Model Y (or Admiral Ackbar as I call them) was to be delivered for me tomorrow I would say no. Terrible car when I tested the Model 3 as a proxy. Tesla make good EV but not good cars IMHO. Plus Musk is a ****

• Poor suspension
• Interior felt boring and bland
• Road noise felt like a window was open.
• Rear seat was a poor place to be on rough roads.

Some of those opinions are subjective of course.

 

[Journey]

I was never really impressed with the Q4, it always felt like a tarted up ID.4. While the Q4 and ID.4 are ‘fine’, you expect more and it’s competitors have outdone them.

The competition coming out of the Korean manufacturers is significant, and the shift to EV's certainly has made them able to rebrand as more premium quality vehicles moving forward. I think the Japanese manufacturers are the ones who will lose out in the medium to long term, and maybe one of the German contingent as well, especially with the increased pressure from that USA based startup. Not entirely sure how well the Chinese based cars will do in the premium market, but they are going to destroy the likes of Ford/Vauxhall offerings at the lower end of the market with the ability to offer volume at lower pricing, the new MG4 is a great example.

 

[sandys]

Yup Koreans doing some quality stuff, you can have a Genesis GV70 electric in 2 weeks, feels very premium.

 

[gailjon]

Yup Koreans doing some quality stuff, you can have a Genesis GV70 electric in 2 weeks, feels very premium.

Funnily enough I was just looking at the Genesis website and as you say there are many available in 2 weeks. Start at around 65k but you do get 5 years servicing, warranty, etc. The reviews have just started coming through on y tube for them.

 

[ICDP]

Yup Koreans doing some quality stuff, you can have a Genesis GV70 electric in 2 weeks, feels very premium.

I think Audi and VW quality has dropped since dieselgate. They have had to recoup those losses due to fines somehow and lowering the quality of their cars was a low hanging fruit. Don't get me wrong, the actual high end stuff is stil lpremium, bit go down to a A1, A3, Q3, Q4 etc and they are arguably worse than the "cheaper" brands.

I remember the first time I sat in a T-Roc a number of years back and was astonished that a £28k car had so much hard scratchy plastic. It was the same with the ID3 and it was a very cheap feeling car IMHO.

BMW, Jaguar and Merc still have that premium feel that is above what the Korean cars offer IMHO, but the lines are blurring all the time.

 

[chanjy]

Funnily enough I was just looking at the Genesis website and as you say there are many available in 2 weeks. Start at around 65k but you do get 5 years servicing, warranty, etc. The reviews have just started coming through on y tube for them.

Jesus and the EV6 started just over £40k which is basically the same car, no? No wonder there are a few available

 

[Showboat]

New car finally delivered today through my wife's NHS lease; BMW I4 eDrive 40 M SPORT.
We'd initially ordered an Audi Q4 e-tron sportback but that kept getting pushed back so swapped that to a stock vehicle they had an offer on.

We had an eGolf previously so familiar with electric cars, took it out for a brief drive today and I'm really impressed with it.

Fantastic car, i'm in a similar situation with wife and being able to get a car on the NHS lease scheme.
I can get an I4 for about £410 a month, but i really dont understand the damage caused to her pension by the salary sacrifice scheme, have you worked it out and able to offer some advice?
We are waiting to get some guidance from her union as don't want to impact it too much and with these lease schemes if they are decent we could use it for 20 years. (If it's not horrendous dmg to the pension!)

 

[ICDP]

Fantastic car, i'm in a similar situation with wife and being able to get a car on the NHS lease scheme.
I can get an I4 for about £410 a month, but i really dont understand the damage caused to her pension by the salary sacrifice scheme, have you worked it out and able to offer some advice?
We are waiting to get some guidance from her union as don't want to impact it too much and with these lease schemes if they are decent we could use it for 20 years. (If it's not horrendous dmg to the pension!)

If she is on final salary and close to retirement then avoid salary sacrifice, or select the I am not on a pension option. It will give you a quote for no impact on the pension. I have a decent salary and am on average pension, so the impact will not be that drastic considering I am saving arouns £12k overy 3 years on the scheme as long as the EV tax stays low.

 

[sandys]

BMW, Jaguar and Merc still have that premium feel that is above what the Korean cars offer IMHO, but the lines are blurring all the time

I would say Jaguar feels more premium for the cars we've tested, BMW and Merc less so but the Mercs in our search range like GLC/EQC are older and probably due a refresh, or drastically need it.

Jesus and the EV6 started just over £40k which is basically the same car, no? No wonder there are a few available

A high spec EV6 is 60k, the Genesis is a big step up from that in terms of interior fit and finish and stack more power, though for its size it needs it, I wouldn't say it represents great value as has been typical of Korean cars in the past as some options that IMO should be standard at this level come in optional packs, but its no worse than the Germans and has a better warranty.

Comes with 24p/unit Ionity thing for 5 yrs, is that a decent network

 

[ICDP]

I would say Jaguar feels more premium for the cars we've tested, BMW and Merc less so but the Mercs in our search range like GLC/EQC are older and probably due a refresh, or drastically need it.



A high spec EV6 is 60k, the Genesis is a big step up from that in terms of interior fit and finish and stack more power, though for its size it needs it.

Comes with 24p/unit Ionity thing for 5 yrs, is that a decent network

Yeah, it's an easy trap to fall into and I had this with the Q4 vs the I-Pace. At the time I specced up a Q4 50 Sportback in Vorsprung trim it came in at about £67.5k. The I-Pace SE was £68k and the Black £70k. This was Jan 2022 prices.

 

[Journey]

Comes with 24p/unit Ionity thing for 5 yrs, is that a decent network

24p!! That is basically free these days!

 

[b0rn2sk8]

Fantastic car, i'm in a similar situation with wife and being able to get a car on the NHS lease scheme.
I can get an I4 for about £410 a month, but i really dont understand the damage caused to her pension by the salary sacrifice scheme, have you worked it out and able to offer some advice?
We are waiting to get some guidance from her union as don't want to impact it too much and with these lease schemes if they are decent we could use it for 20 years. (If it's not horrendous dmg to the pension!)

See my post below which explains it. You’ll need to plug in your own numbers.

Help! Lease deal - BMW iX £500/month

I'm really not up to speed to lease deals and pitfalls to be wary of, so i'd appreciate some help understanding where i've messed this up as it looks to good to be true. Wife gets a nhs lease scheme from work, using salary sacrifice. There is an offer of the following: BMW iX ESTATE 240kW...

forums.overclockers.co.uk

I’ll be completely honest, if you are an average earner then it will decimate your pension if you use it for 20 years.

If she is on final salary and close to retirement then avoid salary sacrifice, or select the I am not on a pension option. It will give you a quote for no impact on the pension. I have a decent salary and am on average pension, so the impact will not be that drastic considering I am saving arouns £12k overy 3 years on the scheme as long as the EV tax stays low.

Shouldn’t be on a final salary pension if they are think about using it for the long term. They closed some time ago.

I’m assuming that the non pension option is significantly more expensive.

 

[ICDP]

I’ll be completely honest, if you are an average earner then it will decimate your pension if you use it for 20 years.

Shouldn’t be on a final salary pension if they are think about using it for the long term. They closed some time ago.

I’m assuming that the non pension option is significantly more expensive.

Yeah, good point on the pension. As an example of my recent order of a Volvo C40 single motor core edition. I am an 8a on just over £60k with on call payments).

Vovlo C40 Core edition single motor

Pension sacrifice is £46 per month, or £1656 over 3 years. All other savings mean I am getting the car for £313 per month. This of course included servicing, tyres, tax, insurance, breakdown cover and warranty. Had I chosen to not sacrifice on my pension the price jumped up to £430 per month, or £4,572 over three years.

It is an oversimplification to just look at the pension costs. Because the cost of buying and running a half decent used car, are far higher than the cost of the lease and the potential impact on my pension.

 

[b0rn2sk8]

The impact on your pension isn’t what you save on the pension though. It’s the gross amount sacrificed multiplied by your pension schemes salary fraction (usually about 2.3%).

Say the gross amount sacrificed is £7500, times that by 2.3% = £172. Times that by 3 for the period of the agreement = £516.

That means your annual pension is reduced by £516 per year for how ever long you live after you retire just for that 3 year agreement. If you live 15 years, that’s £7,740.

Say you do the salary sacrifice thing for 10 years, your pension will be down £1,720 a year, every year. (£25,800 if you live 15 years).

The question is always around how long do you think you’ll live and if you think the lower pension will be material or not later in life against the benefit of the saving in the vehicle now.

Also consider that you may want to take your pension early l which will reduce it further (5% reduction for every year below state pension age, E.g. if you retire at 65, it’s reduced by 15%).

For me the decision isn’t clear cut and very personal, the impacts are bigger than most people understand. You really need to look at your pension forecasts before making any decisions.

I can see why the employer would want to offer these schemes though, the short term (employers NI) and long term cost saving (pension scheme) are absolutely gigantic.

 

[ICDP]

Yeah, I did look in to the impact and it is quite substantial if your only income in retirement is your pension. How I looked at it though was that I was spending ~£27k for a used car every 3 years. With runing costs, fuel costs and depreciation it was working out at over £600 per month to me.

So going with my I-Pace EV through salary sacrifice I am saving ~£200 per month compared to running my previous used BMW X1 diesel. This is not man maths, this is actual watching my finances and how much disposable income I have had month by month even after raises in salary. So using your 10 years scenario I could lose ~£18k on my pension over the same length of time. Yet I am saving ~£24,000 (200x120). I know I could simply start buying cheaper cars and run them longer but that is not my personal preference.

It does irk me that my pension is affected but it is working out better for me in the long run. I get that this will not be the same for everyone. Like I said I do always have that thought of just buying a cheapish sub £10k runabout. But my experience of those was always about eventually having upwards to £1000 per year on servicing and repairs unless you got very lucky. Especialy considering what less than £10k gets you used these days.