When can you say you're a "Web Developer"?

Dj_Jestar · 30 Jul 2010 at 17:59

NathanE said:
Web Designer = front-end only

Web Developer = back-end (i.e. ASP.NET, Ruby, PHP etc type coding), but also the talented guys can do front-end (web design) work as well.

No point calling a web developer a "software developer" either, because they ain't. Web development is one of the easiest forms of software development. Regardless of which framework you choose, they all provide a nice guided path that is "on rails" per se. At least compared to traditional software development.

That's a bit of a sweeping statement, don't you agree? The majority of applications are web-based these days. Intranets are fast replacing desktop apps for a number of things, yet still carry all the complexity of their predecessors, and more.

Starting to sound like a Dinosaur NathanE

NathanE · 30 Jul 2010 at 21:28

Perhaps the sheer number of ASP.NET monkeys we've sifted through over the past year that didn't know how the GC worked or a single thing about multi-threading or hell even just what a fully-qualified assembly name is... has biased me somewhat.

But no I don't think it's an exaggeration really. Obviously there are a lot of web devs here so it is surely easy to offend with a view like that. But it is my honest view. Not many web devs would feel comfortable writing enterprise grade client-server software, I don't think.

Dj_Jestar · 30 Jul 2010 at 23:08

I can definitly see your point, but as a Web Developer that does write software for "enterprise" (I hate that phrase

) applications, perhaps I am biased in the opposite direction

I certainly agree there are many, many 'developers' that can manage a few modificaions to a CMS and not much more though.

Yakyb · 31 Jul 2010 at 19:58

thanks for that link to the dunning Kruger effect, this is especially prevailant in my company, its incredibly annoying when people try to effect policy when they have no idea what they are talking about

Gman · 31 Jul 2010 at 20:39

to throw in another title at my company were called Software Engineers

Imy · 2 Aug 2010 at 16:41

Anyone remember the term "Web Master"? That's the job title I'd attribute to someone who manages website/email content.

CliffyBiro · 2 Aug 2010 at 16:47

Imy said:
Anyone remember the term "Web Master"? That's the job title I'd attribute to someone who manages website/email content.

Haven't heard that in years.

Dj_Jestar · 2 Aug 2010 at 16:48

"WEBMASTERS!!!!!! CONTACT ME HERE"

Moredhel · 2 Aug 2010 at 17:40

From experience in attempting to hire web developers. It seems to range from people with years of experience in as many languages as you could count, to people who have just found out what HTML stands for.

NerveAgent · 4 Nov 2011 at 08:46

NathanE said:
Perhaps the sheer number of ASP.NET monkeys we've sifted through over the past year that didn't know how the GC worked or a single thing about multi-threading or hell even just what a fully-qualified assembly name is... has biased me somewhat.

But no I don't think it's an exaggeration really. Obviously there are a lot of web devs here so it is surely easy to offend with a view like that. But it is my honest view. Not many web devs would feel comfortable writing enterprise grade client-server software, I don't think.

I think this is just because web development is the "place to be" at the moment. There is always an area that the monkeys are going to be, the most popular area. It doesn't necessarily mean it the easiest area. I know my job is lot harder now that I've moved over to web stuff... (albiet fairly complex enterprise web apps)

Draeger · 4 Nov 2011 at 09:03

Holy thread revival, Batman!!

NerveAgent · 4 Nov 2011 at 09:23

I may or may not have searched for something then forgot it was a search page

Me use computer...

Dj_Jestar · 4 Nov 2011 at 10:06

NerveAgent said:
I think this is just because web development is the "place to be" at the moment. There is always an area that the monkeys are going to be, the most popular area. It doesn't necessarily mean it the easiest area. I know my job is lot harder now that I've moved over to web stuff... (albiet fairly complex enterprise web apps)

It's also because a lot of companies are reducing the cost of maintaining and supporting server/client software by cutting out the client and running server-only (i.e. web) software.

NathanE · 4 Nov 2011 at 10:35

I still stand by what I said.

Dj_Jestar said:
It's also because a lot of companies are reducing the cost of maintaining and supporting server/client software by cutting out the client and running server-only (i.e. web) software.

The strange thing about web apps is that they're both the client and server side all rolled into one. But still, many ASP.NET people don't seem to identify when it is appropriate to work outside the box that is the MVC pattern. They seem to have a "must not deviate, ever" mindset. So you end up seeing swathes of code of domain logic in the V and the C, that really should be all nicely encapsulated up in a totally separate assembly that probably doesn't even need a reference to System.Web. It is a separation of concerns issue, but the average ASP.NET monkey just doesn't "get" it.

Haircut · 4 Nov 2011 at 10:49

I don't necessarily think it's just a web developer problem, more just a developer problem.
We were recruiting for developers recently. WPF front end, fairly meaty server back end and the amount of people that were cluleless was unbelievable.

We do a telephone screening first of all, nothing too difficult - just to make sure you know a bit about your stuff.
One of the questions asked, was 'Do you know what the SOLID principles are?'
That's it, not asking anything more in depth about them than that. Mostly just to make sure that you at least are interested in what you do and perhaps have read some articles somewhere about things.
I reckon 80% of candidates had no idea.

DanF · 4 Nov 2011 at 11:23

yeah I think the last time we did a hiring drive it was something like 1:200 ratio in London

it takes up so much time for our TL's to sift through the CV's and do initial phone interviews.

I think basic website and programming have just become easier, with frameworks like asp.net providing so much working code people are just getting more interested in trying it. And web dev/programmer pay is still way over national averages so it's always going to be seen as an attractive career path. Saying that 2/3rds of out team is foreign, can't remember the last time we employed a std British person, they seem to be the ones that are the most clueless

Rikki · 4 Nov 2011 at 11:42

A bit like "photographer".

Anyone with a cheap DSLR now jumps around claiming to be a photographer, they will do your 18th birthday party, your wedding, cover your events - because they are a photographer...

Well I've got a pair of Umbro boots and a Mitre ball which I kick around ... am I a footballer ?

Dj_Jestar · 4 Nov 2011 at 11:50

NathanE said:
I still stand by what I said.

The strange thing about web apps is that they're both the client and server side all rolled into one. But still, many ASP.NET people don't seem to identify when it is appropriate to work outside the box that is the MVC pattern. They seem to have a "must not deviate, ever" mindset. So you end up seeing swathes of code of domain logic in the V and the C, that really should be all nicely encapsulated up in a totally separate assembly that probably doesn't even need a reference to System.Web. It is a separation of concerns issue, but the average ASP.NET monkey just doesn't "get" it.

Completely agree

As Haircut points out though, that's just bad developers, and not limited to web devs.

Web development is the "current fad" in the software realm. Every man and his dog wants in on it, but they don't necessarily know what they are doing. Client development is seen as "old hat" and typically those developing it will have more experience (when averaged) compared to all of those in web development.

Web development is easily accessible. By that I mean it's simple to do something like create a page, thus giving you the "title" web developer - you have after all just developed a web page. Modern languages like C# with frameworks like ASP make it even more accessible. However, it's easy to do it badly.

axer · 4 Nov 2011 at 11:52

AJK said:
A Web Designer creates the layout and graphic design of a site/page.
A Web Developer (front end) codes the client side (HTML, CSS, javascript, etc.)
A Web Developer (back end) codes the server side (ASP.NET, PHP, etc.)

I'd say the blanket term "Web Developer" can be used for those working in either or both of the latter two categories, though someone who works primarily in the design phase and just does HTML mockups wouldn't qualify

I agree 100% although this doesn't just apply to this sector - look at all the "engineers" out there!

Pants · 4 Nov 2011 at 18:48

NathanE said:
...No point calling a web developer a "software developer" either, because they ain't. Web development is one of the easiest forms of software development. Regardless of which framework you choose, they all provide a nice guided path that is "on rails" per se. At least compared to traditional software development.

Web development isn't any easier than desktop based development if it's a reasonable sized application we're talking about. On the project I'm on the heavy lifting is done in data and domain projects which expose services. As for the UI we happen to be using ASP.NET MVC, but it would be no more complex if it was a MVVM WPF application for example.

After all I would expect both be using dependency injection / interfaces to facilitate testing, separate projects for separate concerns, etc...

If we're saying that a web developer who hasn't got a clue about the above isn't a software developer, then there's probably just as many VB6 / Winforms / WPF developers than are in the same boat.