When will console FPS compare to PCs'?

Caporegime
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I mean when will developers actually let us plug in our USB keyboards and mouse and configure it to our liking and use that? Surely that can't be far off, I like FPS on the PC and always hated the joypad controls, the major let down is the speed of turn. And the 360 is at a price where its the same as a new gfx so i don't see any incentive to get a gfx for that new game anymore.
 
As much as I hate FPS console games due to controls I hope they never bring in what your suggesting. The thing I like about on-line console gaming is the fact when I play everybody has the same hardware. I don't have to wonder if they beat me because they had a better mouse giving them a millisecond advantage which allows them to toast my bum when skill wise they normally wouldn't. :o
 
They could easily do it now, its not a technical obstacle, they just choose not to allow it officially (which is correct IMO)
 
Last console fps that I can remember with mouse support was PS1 Quake2. with movement on joypad and camera/gun control on mouse, it made the game much easier to play/enjoy/multiplay ;) if mouse and key control was added to newer console fps, id have enjoyed gamed like red faction2, black, area51, moh series much more. as it stands if not been able to complete em due to controls.
 
I love FPS games on the PC and hate them on consoles - IMO there are games on consoles which don't translate well to PC (probably work better now that there are quite a few decent PC control pads about though) and vice versa.

I think console FPS games just came about because of the amount of people who wanted to play them but didnt have a PC.
 
If you don't already know my views on this then you do not frequent these parts of the forum enough.


Here is an article from the Shadow Run Development team.


http://shadowrun.com/behindthescenes/articles/ControllerBalancing.htm said:
Controller Balancing
Sage Merrill: Game Designer
Console Vs PC in a Shooter?!? How are you going to balance that?!

That is exactly what the design team for Shadowrun was thinking when we realized we wanted to have cross-platform play between the Xbox 360 and Vista PC players. In this article I’ll walk you through the process we went through and some of our general design philosophy.

So how do you balance a shooter where console and PC players can play against each other? Controller vs. Mouse & Keyboard, which is better? It’s a question that has been on gamers minds ever since shooters started appearing on consoles. Obviously the mouse is superior, right? I mean the mouse is designed as a hyper-sensitive pointing device and has been refined over the years specifically for that purpose. We all know that the most important element in any shooter game is the ability to quickly get your crosshair over the enemy and pull the trigger. So given that, it’s obvious that the mouse will win every time in a fire fight, regardless of the game, right? Wrong. Don’t misunderstand me, that is exactly what every single member of the design team thought, including me, until we actually tried it. So, what actually happened when we played our first cross-platform game? The controller players trounced the mouse/keyboard players. It wasn’t even close; the mouse players got stomped on. Over and over. So what happened? Did the mouse players just suck? Or was the controller actually a superior aiming device? Short answer: the mouse is better at aiming, but the controller is better at gaming. Long answer: read on.


If you’re even bothering to read this, then you’re probably a gamer of some kind. Being a gamer, you know that good controls are essential to any game. As designers, we want the controls to feel like they are an extension of the player. If the player is blaming the controls for their failures, then we have done something wrong. Additionally, mapping precise aiming control to the sticks on a controller is not a simple problem. There are very few console shooter games that do this well, and even fewer that manage to make it feel like an extension of your will. The design team knew good console controls were going to take some serious time and effort to get right, so we set out to do that first. Lucky for us some of the team members worked on the original Halo, so we had that going for us from the start. I’ll spare you the technical details, but it basically breaks down like this:


The 360 controller is awesome; it is probably the best console controller to date (Ignoring its D-pad, which sucks). The resolution on each stick axis is something like 64K, plenty of resolution to give precise aiming on the screen. Unfortunately the throw distance on the sticks (Throw distance = distance from neutral to pegged) is so small that most humans simply don’t have the motor skills to utilize it. To help alleviate this, and make the controls feel “right”, we do a bunch of tricks to essentially enlarge the stick throw area. What exactly do we do? We map the sticks to a curve so that most of the area is used for micro movement and only the very edge is used for large turns. We also bend the weapon ray a bit within the crosshair (auto-aim). There are a few other proprietary tricks we do, but I can’t tell you the specifics. The point is that we do a bunch of extra work, and tuning to make the controls feel good with a 360 controller. So we did all that work. I spent months tuning and refining the 360 controls, until the team was happy with the results.


So now that we have console controls that we’re happy with we start implementing the mouse/keyboard controls. At this point we are still paranoid that the mouse is going to “own”, so we put in all kinds of extra code to help us balance the game play. Meaning that we remove all the controller assistance, and auto-aiming stuff. We also add the concept of accuracy “blow out” from quick turning. Let me explain. In our game we use an accuracy model on the weapons, meaning that if you hold down the trigger or run or jump while firing a weapon you will be less accurate. This is similar to any of the Clancy games, or CS. So for the mouse we also added the idea that if you spin around 180 very quickly your weapon will be less accurate than if you stood still and fired. We take a guess at some values and go into the lab to see how it plays.

To everyone’s surprise, the mouse players get owned. Ok, so we overdid the numbers, no big deal. We make some tweaks and try it again. Same result. This cycle continues until we have everything (auto-aim, targeting assistance, and accuracy) turned back on for the mouse. It’s a lot closer, but the mouse players are still losing. WTF? Do the mouse players just suck? No, some of our testers play semi-professional gaming, so we know they don’t totally suck (In fact they recently dominated in a shooter tournament at PAX). Is it because our game plays so much differently than a standard shooter? Partially, but we also found a bug. The mouse players were getting slightly more recoil when shot, this caused them to lose most of their fire fights. So we fixed that, and the mouse players finally started to win. So now we know we are close to having a balanced game.

Again, we turn off all the targeting assistance stuff for the mouse, and test. It’s pretty even. The mouse players are a little better at long range combat, but the controller players are better close in.
So what is it about our game that makes it possible for controller players to hold their own? Two things: 1 – we do some things to assist targeting with the controller so you don’t have to be pixel precise. 2 - Easy access to all the other abilities and powers. No one is disputing the fact that the mouse is a superior aiming device for the standard shooter, but in our game its not all about how fast can you get your crosshair on the head of your opponent. That’s been done, and frankly is not all that exciting anymore. Shadowrun is a tactical shooter, it’s all about the situation and whether or not you are setup to take advantage of it. If you find yourself in combat where you don’t have the advantage, perhaps you should consider some counter move or quick retreat. Its always better to live to fight another day. The controller is designed to give players quick and fluid access to all the games controls. It also gives players analog control of movement speed. This means that they are able to maneuver around the map much more effectively than the mouse players. Therefore, they are better at close combat.


So, in the end the mouse is better at aiming and the controller is better at gaming. No big surprise since that’s exactly what they were designed to do. Some will say that the work we do to make the controller aiming feel good is basically cheating, and that its not true “skill” that helps them win. From one perspective that might be true, but you have to look at our goal. We want to level the playing field between PC and console. Players of equal skill should be able to play how ever they want to, and enjoy the experience. In the end, its not about which control scheme is better, it’s about player preference. What is more comfortable for you, and do you play better with the controller or the mouse/keyboard?


-Sage
 
They will compare - not graphically - when developers nail the Wiimote and nunchuck combo. Already I've seen how much easier it is in a game like Zelda; just aiming the bow and arrow. It could be more natural than a KBM solution eventually.
 
Metroid i think will be the true first test of a FPS on thw wiimote.. and with online multiplayer being thrown in i can see it being another instant classic :)
 
Simple as and when they become common place I will either only play FPS against friends without them or ditch console FPS totally.

Put it this way xbox.com is full of people complaining about host shotgun advantage in GOW.

Some people on here have had people get upset because they used a arcade stick in street fighter.

The advantage will be to the k&M user. I just won't play those people. Thats not being bitter, I just want to sit in my chair or sofa and play fun games from whatever distance I see fit. Have a laugh and a few beers while playing. I could never do that hunched over a desk with a K&M.

Aimings not so accurate with a joypad, but so what everyone is at the same disadvantage.
 
dannyjo22 said:
Simple as and when they become common place I will either only play FPS against friends without them or ditch console FPS totally.

Put it this way xbox.com is full of people complaining about host shotgun advantage in GOW.

Some people on here have had people get upset because they used a arcade stick in street fighter.

The advantage will be to the k&M user. I just won't play those people. Thats not being bitter, I just want to sit in my chair or sofa and play fun games from whatever distance I see fit. Have a laugh and a few beers while playing. I could never do that hunched over a desk with a K&M.

Aimings not so accurate with a joypad, but so what everyone is at the same disadvantage.


Your right, we don't play competitively, its not about who wins and who loses, when we play we play for a laugh. wining is just the result of us having a good laugh. Also what the KB/M "Fanboys" do not realise is that they will actually get pwned worse because they are using the wrong tools for the job. Its not just the game UI mechanics that are developed for the joypad. the level design and weapons are too.

I honestly do not believe in a game like GoW a kb/m would give you an advantage on more than 2 levels. The shotgun is the best weapon in the game (imo) and accuracy is not required. Its timing that is more important, something that is down to the individual rather than the control system
 
dannyjo22 said:
Aimings not so accurate with a joypad, but so what everyone is at the same disadvantage.

Obviously this is true, but it's still annoying for some, even when winning, if you don't feel the controls are working properly and feel clumsy, then it can affect enjoyment.
 
I know this may sound blaspemous to Wii owners, Or perhaps 360 owners, But I think the Wii control is the next FPS innovation, Not keyboard and mouse. Imagine CS:Source with the Wii Remote :D It would feel great, Or what about GOW with the Wii: Remote? Gotta say I've only played GOW momentarily, And found it fun to play, Does anyone agree it would be fun with something similar to the Wii: remote?

I'm not talking about the Wii here, I'm talking about the hardware, Being moved over onto other consoles.
 
wannabedamned said:
I know this may sound blaspemous to Wii owners, Or perhaps 360 owners, But I think the Wii control is the next FPS innovation, Not keyboard and mouse. Imagine CS:Source with the Wii Remote :D It would feel great, Or what about GOW with the Wii: Remote? Gotta say I've only played GOW momentarily, And found it fun to play, Does anyone agree it would be fun with something similar to the Wii: remote?

I'm not talking about the Wii here, I'm talking about the hardware, Being moved over onto other consoles.


I think hiding behind the sofa would be the funniest thing ever. :D
 
I'm not so sure about using the Wiimote in a fps. It feels very light and jittery at times. It could be very good, but I think the controls would need some clever smoothing over to stop the crosshair jumping around. Red Steel hasn't done much to convince me - it's the worst, most unresponsive fps i've played in years - but this could just be an example of poor implementation rather than an inadequacy of the Wiimote.

Metroid should be more suited. The series has never needed twitch aiming and the Wiimote will be used mainly to lock onto the target, rather than having to track it.
 
I've said before, although Zelda isn't an FPS, the aiming and shooting is very smooth and accurate. Picking some distant moblins off with accuracy was immensely satisfying - and I believe much harder to replicate with analogue sticks. Fighting the boss on the same dungeon, which requires the player to shoot a smallish target on the head of the boss was easy to do - even when he was charging around/towards me. And the bow and arrow isn't an automatic weapon either :)

I think it is a good demonstration of the way it could go with the Wii and FPS games. Unfortunately Red Steel hasn't met expectations :(
 
Zelda is a little different in that you're standing perfectly still when aiming. Something similar to Golden Eye would be good (another game you had to be still when using the crosshair), but something like Quake 3, or anything involving fast movement and twitch aiming, wouldn't work imo.
 
Warbie said:
Zelda is a little different in that you're standing perfectly still when aiming. Something similar to Golden Eye would be good (another game you had to be still when using the crosshair), but something like Quake 3, or anything involving fast movement and twitch aiming, wouldn't work imo.

It worked well on horseback too, without Z-targetting.
 
Warbie said:
I'm not so sure about using the Wiimote in a fps. It feels very light and jittery at times. It could be very good, but I think the controls would need some clever smoothing over to stop the crosshair jumping around. Red Steel hasn't done much to convince me - it's the worst, most unresponsive fps i've played in years - but this could just be an example of poor implementation rather than an inadequacy of the Wiimote.

Metroid should be more suited. The series has never needed twitch aiming and the Wiimote will be used mainly to lock onto the target, rather than having to track it.

I think the problem is in the chair to be honest. Once you've sorted out the sensitivity of the wiimote and have acquired a decent amount of practice, the Nunchuk and Wiimote are VERY responsive. Try it yourself with a normal TV remote; keep your arm pointing towards the screen for several minutes and then try moving at imaginary targets on the screen. Your arm will soon tire, your accuracy will start to decrease and after a while the 'steadyness' of your aim will start to get shakey.

I've played on Red Steel a lot of hours this week and the controls are pretty damn good, personally I think better than a controller although still a bit off K+M.
 
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