Which one is correct?

Castiel · 17 Nov 2012 at 20:20

FoxEye said:
I was always taught if your subject end in 's', the possessive form is xxxxs'

Philips' profits for 2012...
Archimedes' mirror.

Archimedes's mirror just sounds plain wrong. And I know my English teacher would frown at me

One of the vagaries of English Grammar means that it can often look (and sound) strange, which is why there are always exceptions to the rule depending on the structure of the phrase or sentence.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn19170-reconstructed-archimedess-flaming-steam-cannon.html

Or

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2005/oct/24/internationalnews

However, your English Teacher will (or at least should) tell you that with peoples names the proper form is xxxs's.

FoxEye · 17 Nov 2012 at 20:39

Castiel said:
One of the vagaries of English Grammar means that it can often look (and sound) strange, which is why there are always exceptions to the rule depending on the structure of the phrase or sentence.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn19170-reconstructed-archimedess-flaming-steam-cannon.html

Or

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2005/oct/24/internationalnews

However, your English Teacher will (or at least should) tell you that with peoples names the proper form is xxxs's.

Archimedes is a name... and that guardian link uses the form Archimedes', so now I'm just confused (again)!

FoxEye · 17 Nov 2012 at 20:47

http://en.allexperts.com/q/General-Writing-Grammar-680/2008/12/Possessive-Plural-Nouns-Jesus.htm

I like this answer:

Answer
Bob:

I probably shouldn't be venturing into this messy situation, for several reasons: (1) usage changes over time; (2) if you have contacted other experts, you'll probably get a variety of answers; and, (3) there are exceptions to "rules," and, in this case, the rule of "what sounds best or looks best" should be used.

That having been said, I believe that "Hodges' Harbrace Handbook" [I've used the title page which has the apostrophe AFTER the "s"] cannot be surpassed. The latest edition, however, may differ from earlier editions, because this "possession problem" has been around for decades [centuries?], and it has been addressed in different ways over the years.

I have checked six other grammar books, including the two that I rank immediately after Hodges' work: "The Heath Handbook" and "The Holt Handbook." They are in agreement with Hodges.

Let's take your two examples in reverse order:

First, there is NO way that guys' cars and gals' boots can be other than what I just typed. I don't even want to hear the incorrect pronuncation of "guyses' cars."

Second, Jesus has always been a problem. [Interestingly, Jesus and his apostrophe USED to be mentioned in grammar books. Of the six books I consulted, he does not appear.] The closest I could come is from Prentice-Hall's "The College Writer's Reference" [second edition]:

The following is directly quoted from the book --

Rule 34A: Use an apostrophe and -s to form the possessive of a singular noun ending in -s. If pronouncing the additional syllable is awkward, you may use the apostrophe alone.

EXAMPLES:

Don't waste the class's time.
The company produced Yeats' cycle of plays about the Irish hero Cuchulain.

"The Holt Handbook" also covers this topic. Quoting directly --

RULE 29A:

With singular nouns ending in -s:

To form the possessive case of singular nouns that end in -s, add -'s in most cases.

EXAMPLES:

Reading Henry James's "The Ambassadors" [I cannot use italics at Allexperts.] was not Maris's idea of fun.

The class's time was changed to 8 a.m.

However, a few singular nouns that end with an s or z sound require ONLY an apostrophe in the possessive case. This is because pronouncing the possessive ending as a separate syllable would create an awkward-sounding phrase.

EXAMPLES:

For goodness' sake -- are we really required to read both Aristrophanes' [sic] "Lysistrata" and Thucydides' "History of the Peloponesian War"?

NOTE from me: It's unfortunate that Aristophanes' name was misspelled in a grammar book!

My final answers:

guys'
gals'
Jesus'

Not that your students will believe me!

Ted Nesbitt

Castiel · 17 Nov 2012 at 20:54

FoxEye said:
[

I like this answer:

Which is precisely what I said and why I gave you two examples.

FoxEye · 17 Nov 2012 at 21:07

Castiel said:
Which is precisely what I said and why I gave you two examples.

Castiel, you gave two conflicting examples.

NS which chose the form Archimedes's (which I personally think it wrong due to the difficulty of pronouncing it), and Guardian which chose the form Archimedes'.

In that case I fail to see how Ar-kim-ee-dees-es would be preferred over Archimedes'.

Castiel · 17 Nov 2012 at 21:36

FoxEye said:
Castiel, you gave two conflicting examples.

NS which chose the form Archimedes's (which I personally think it wrong due to the difficulty of pronouncing it), and Guardian which chose the form Archimedes'.

In that case I fail to see how Ar-kim-ee-dees-es would be preferred over Archimedes'.

I gave two conflicting examples to illustrate how depending on the structure of the sentence they can be both correct in certain circumstances....the NS scientist gave the formal correct version in fact.

If you read what I wrote:

One of the vagaries of English Grammar means that it can often look (and sound) strange, which is why there are always exceptions to the rule depending on the structure of the phrase or sentence.

You will see why I gave the two examples to show the exception to the rule in the second example......which is precisely what the quote you gave said.

Reading Henry James's "The Ambassadors" [I cannot use italics at Allexperts.] was not Maris's idea of fun.

The class's time was changed to 8 a.m.

However, a few singular nouns that end with an s or z sound require ONLY an apostrophe in the possessive case. This is because pronouncing the possessive ending as a separate syllable would create an awkward-sounding phrase.

But the rule stands, that with people's names the form xxxxs's is the correct one in most cases, so Jones's, not Jones'.

Another one that he mentions is Jesus, but that is for a different reason...Jesus's doesnt sound out of place but Biblical Scholars have always used the old poetic form Jesus' ( although we would still say it as Jesus's) which is why it remains, wrongly according to the authoritative Hart's Rules for Compositors and Readers at the University Press, Oxford, but that's English for you.

It is an exception to the rule, not the rule itself.

Viper² · 17 Nov 2012 at 21:39

My first name ends in an S, and I have always been told that you just shove an apostrophe on the end, not "'s".

Castiel · 17 Nov 2012 at 21:49

Viper² said:
My first name ends in an S, and I have always been told that you just shove an apostrophe on the end, not "'s".

It depends on the name and then on the way it is structured in a sentence..but if it was Thomas for example then the correct form in most cases would be Thomas's (St Thomas's Church), but you might see it occasionally written Thomas' (St Thomas' Hospital). The latter because it is named after two St Thomas's and St Thomases Hospital looks a little strange written down.

Viper² · 17 Nov 2012 at 21:57

Castiel said:
It depends on the name and then on the way it is structured in a sentence..but if it was Thomas for example then the correct form in most cases would be Thomas's (St Thomas's Church), but you might see it occasionally written Thomas' (St Thomas' Hospital). The latter because it is named after two St Thomas's and St Thomases Hospital looks a little strange written down.

I refer to the possessive in the main. A few years old but I'm guessing this still applies - http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=764342 - apparently the US Postal Office changed their style manual to add an apostrophe only, rather than "apostrophe s" but it's a style preference on the whole.

Ahleckz · 17 Nov 2012 at 22:08

Castiel said:
This.

You add ‘s to a singular name that ends in s: Jones's

You add an es to make it plural: Joneses.

You then add an apostrophe to make the plural possessive: Joneses'

You wouldn't use Jones' as Jones is a name and although it is creeping into common usage to simply use an apostrophe, it isn't technically correct use of the apostrophe with names.

Hope that clears it up.

This is what I teach. It isn't 100% true for all circumstances, but it's as good as any other rule in English.

ubersonic · 18 Nov 2012 at 02:47

FoxEye said:
Philips' profits for 2012...
Archimedes' mirror.

The first one is wrong it should be "Philip's profits for 2012", the second one however is correct because the name is from ancient times so uses ye oldie English rules from before the s was added after apostrophes, I.E Moses' basket, Achilles' ankle.

I actually have a bookmark explaining it all as my name is James and I was looking into this some time ago lol, here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/learningenglish/radio/specials/1535_questionanswer/page25.shtml