Why are smartphones so expensive?

[Mekrel]

I've struggled to understand the continual need to produce faster, and faster SoCs for mobile - at least, rather, I struggle to understand the need for a new SoC to come along every year.

I understand why this happens for desktop computers as they're primarily used for content creation such as video rendering, coding and big databases. However, on phones, the portable size of the device and screen means resolution isn't going to keep increasing and it's not like graphically intensive games are the primary use for phone users.
Is there anything that will run on a SD 865, but will not run on a 855?

My biggest gripe with phones is battery life, it's annoying that process shrinking and the resulting energy consumption reduction is reduced by clock increases. Why not cap performance and have the entire die shrink benefit go into energy consumption?

 

[kona786]

Still on Pixel 2 XL. Want a new toy. Everything comes with some kind of deal breaking compromise, considering the amount of money you pay for these things. Was really interested in OP8Pro but then I find out it doesn't really have a telephoto lens (although I'm getting conflicting information there), so it lacks a major feature that I would want for my money. At this rate, I can see me keeping the 2 XL for another 18 months.

OnePlus 8 Pro

Ultrawide

Wide

Tele 3x (2x optical and 3x hybrid)

 

[sandys]

I've struggled to understand the continual need to produce faster, and faster SoCs for mobile - at least, rather, I struggle to understand the need for a new SoC to come along every year.

I understand why this happens for desktop computers as they're primarily used for content creation such as video rendering, coding and big databases. However, on phones, the portable size of the device and screen means resolution isn't going to keep increasing and it's not like graphically intensive games are the primary use for phone users.
Is there anything that will run on a SD 865, but will not run on a 855?

My biggest gripe with phones is battery life, it's annoying that process shrinking and the resulting energy consumption reduction is reduced by clock increases. Why not cap performance and have the entire die shrink benefit go into energy consumption?

I think for me I want more power such that the phone can end up as a general desktop replacement, things like Dex are getting there but the grunt is not good enough really to multi task.

 

[Mekrel]

I think for me I want more power such that the phone can end up as a general desktop replacement, things like Dex are getting there but the grunt is not good enough really to multi task.

I'm not sure how that's really useful for a couple of reasons:

1. DeX and the likes require a screen to be useful and you might as well take a laptop with you if you're going to cart around a screen
2. ARM based equivalents such as Office aren't as fully fledged as their x86 counterparts

 

[sandys]

That's the point, the phone is portable but when I am home/office/away I can just plug this thing into any old screen or use wifi direct and have a proper machine, I already do this by the way with a bluetooth keyboard and mouse in my headphone case, most places have a screen you can use even if it is just 1080p, but the phone needs more oompfh just doesn't cope well, not meany sub 300g laptops that fit in my pocket.

The office apps are plenty good enough for me.

Ideally I'd like not too have the expense/weight of a pricey tiny laptop too, ASUS had the right idea in the past with a phone that dropped into a lightweight for the time laptop shell, but it was ahead of its time, hoping the fold might be enough screen for most purposes.

I do have a smallish 14" laptop a zenbook but its bulkier to have it than to not, it's heavy at 1.6kg excluding supply, just under 2kgs with supply but I'd still be carrying my phone and headphones so it doesn't save me anything amongst all the other crap I am carrying.

 

[Things change I've changed]

Phones are not expensive, I say this every time this topic crops up, I swear these topics are proof of the power of advertising, people seem to only see 1k phones, iPhone 11's or Samsung Galaxy s20's etc. You get much better value for money at the budget end today (£100-200), think back to the Nokia 3210 when it was released, that phone was £149.99 sim free, compare that today with something like a Moto G8, it's insane what you can do on that device for the money.

Smart phones still amaze me really they do, and that being said although you can get amazing value phones today I do think there is a subset of people that want too much for too little, for example a friend of mine asks me to recommend a phone for around £100, now she uses her phone 24/7, texting, taking photo's, shopping, listening to music, and most recently banking, now I really had to twist her arm to convince her that this device you want to buy holds a lot more value in her life than she was giving it credit for, so thankfully she did eventually up her budget to £200 which helped a lot, and now she loves her new phone!

Although there are some great cheap phones out there and they are very usable, at the same time I certainly don't underestimate the value of high end phones either, for many the smart phone is the single most used device that they will own, it will record important family moments, be your entertainment on the train, jogging with your favourite podcast, transferring funds to your savings account while in bed, filling in your diary reminders for your upcoming week, phones today aren't just a gimmick, they are a digital companion, I believe there is definitely value in having a premium smart phone but obviously not essential.

 

[Deleted member 77746]

Phones are not expensive, I say this every time this topic crops up, I swear these topics are proof of the power of advertising, people seem to only see 1k phones, iPhone 11's or Samsung Galaxy s20's etc. You get much better value for money at the budget end today (£100-200), think back to the Nokia 3210 when it was released, that phone was £149.99 sim free, compare that today with something like a Moto G8, it's insane what you can do on that device for the money.

Things change. Phones have changed.

 

[Terminal_Boy]

Why does the latest iPhone cost €1200+? Because millions of idiots will pay that for it.

 

[Things change I've changed]

Why does the latest iPhone cost €1200+? Because millions of idiots will pay that for it.

Do you really think those people are idiots? Do you really believe there is no value in high-end premium products at all?, I really don't understand the bitterness.

 

[Deleted member 77746]

Why does the latest iPhone cost €1200+? Because millions of idiots will pay that for it.

lol

 

[Dis86]

Do you really think those people are idiots? Do you really believe there is no value in high-end premium products at all?, I really don't understand the bitterness.

You seem to be conflating expense with something being a premium product. Do you own an iPhone by any chance?

 

[Things change I've changed]

You seem to be conflating expense with something being a premium product. Do you own an iPhone by any chance?

No not for a couple of years now, I have had a good play with the iPhone 11 though (Pro Max) and I do think it's worth the 1k you can buy it for now, if it was a little bigger I would've grabbed one myself, I just think people don't appreciate the tech you are getting in some of these flagships, the processing power and more importantly the camera and video quality you have in your pocket, phones are getting so good now we are even starting to see more professionals using them in a pinch instead of hauling all their camera gear around, that just blows my mind.

 

[krooton]

*Looks at 2.5 year old, £280 SD845 phone that is still going strong*

I'm good.

 

[Mekrel]

That's the point, the phone is portable but when I am home/office/away I can just plug this thing into any old screen or use wifi direct and have a proper machine, I already do this by the way with a bluetooth keyboard and mouse in my headphone case, most places have a screen you can use even if it is just 1080p, but the phone needs more oompfh just doesn't cope well, not meany sub 300g laptops that fit in my pocket.

The office apps are plenty good enough for me.

Ideally I'd like not too have the expense/weight of a pricey tiny laptop too, ASUS had the right idea in the past with a phone that dropped into a lightweight for the time laptop shell, but it was ahead of its time, hoping the fold might be enough screen for most purposes.

I do have a smallish 14" laptop a zenbook but its bulkier to have it than to not, it's heavy at 1.6kg excluding supply, just under 2kgs with supply but I'd still be carrying my phone and headphones so it doesn't save me anything amongst all the other crap I am carrying.

But 'any old screen' isn't available on a train for example - if you have a laptop you can work on the train, in the office or anywhere you can place the machine on a flat surface. Heck, even if you didn't have access to a plug socket, the laptop battery is vastly bigger than what comes in a phone and therefore you'll get more usability time when you're without power.

Prior to lockdown I used to get the train from KX to Leeds on a regular basis, if my manager took my laptop away from me and gave me a phone, I wouldn't be able to work due to lack of screen and that's even if the phone had an ARM based processor from 20 years in the future.

There's a reason why Windows RT didn't work and that's because the experience wasn't up to scratch with x86, and even the new Surface Pro X has emulation for x86 applications that has its limitations.

 

[AndyCr15]

But 'any old screen' isn't available on a train for example - if you have a laptop you can work on the train, in the office or anywhere you can place the machine on a flat surface. Heck, even if you didn't have access to a plug socket, the laptop battery is vastly bigger than what comes in a phone and therefore you'll get more usability time when you're without power.

Prior to lockdown I used to get the train from KX to Leeds on a regular basis, if my manager took my laptop away from me and gave me a phone, I wouldn't be able to work due to lack of screen and that's even if the phone had an ARM based processor from 20 years in the future.

But that's a little like making the counter argument that 'a laptop wont fit in your pocket though, will it!?'. Both have strengths and weaknesses. If you don't need to use it on a train, then not being able to use it on a train isn't really an issue...

 

[sandys]

But 'any old screen' isn't available on a train for example - if you have a laptop you can work on the train, in the office or anywhere you can place the machine on a flat surface. Heck, even if you didn't have access to a plug socket, the laptop battery is vastly bigger than what comes in a phone and therefore you'll get more usability time when you're without power.

The phone has a 6.8" screen so it is not like you can't use it, it is just small but with the Note I have the pen so can do stuff quite accurately on VPN without even using my mouse if working directly there, though I do tend to favour my pocket keyboard as I have built up the approriate muscle memory, strangely the phone also has a battery and interms of life the phone tends to last longer than the laptop because its parts are lower power

 

[Mekrel]

But that's a little like making the counter argument that 'a laptop wont fit in your pocket though, will it!?'. Both have strengths and weaknesses. If you don't need to use it on a train, then not being able to use it on a train isn't really an issue...

Not really Andy, the argument is, considering sandys literally said "I think for me I want more power such that the phone can end up as a general desktop replacement", that additional power isn't going to make phones a legitimate desktop replacement. The train was just an example as to why a DeX like setup will not work for a lot of people, plus it's very relevant because in this instance, both the phone and the laptop are portable but only the laptop will suffice if you need to write a presentation in PowerPoint or use Excel.

The phone has a 6.8" screen so it is not like you can't use it, it is just small but with the Note I have the pen so can do stuff quite accurately on VPN without even using my mouse if working directly there, though I do tend to favour my pocket keyboard as I have built up the approriate muscle memory, strangely the phone also has a battery and interms of life the phone tends to last longer than the laptop because its parts are lower power

You said you want a desktop replacement, a 6.8" screen isn't big enough to do serious desktop work on. Good luck running a screen off a small phone battery whilst you're doing desktop grade work that's going to utilising more of the CPU for longer frequency of time. That's even before taking into consideration the TDP of your 'desktop replacement' chip will be higher than current phone SoCs. I would actually go as far as say that the TDP would be too high for a phone chassis too.

The A12Z TDP is 15W and Apple do not believe that will be powerful enough for their desktop machines which is why they'll be putting unreleased silicon into their future ARM based Macs. They'll be pushing the performance and TDP higher but they can as the Mac has the room for cooling.

 

[AndyCr15]

"I think for me I want more power such that the phone can end up as a general desktop replacement"

Okay, when did you last take a desktop on a train? Again, you're picking a situation that it doesn't work for you and saying it's not useful or a good idea...

And, he literally said 'for me', so it's not even like he's saying this is what everyone should do, he's just saying Dex is really handy for him, him wants a little more grunt to run it better.

 

[Mekrel]

Okay, when did you last take a desktop on a train? Again, you're picking a situation that it doesn't work for you and saying it's not useful or a good idea...

And, he literally said 'for me', so it's not even like he's saying this is what everyone should do, he's just saying Dex is really handy for him, him wants a little more grunt to run it better.

The fact it's his opinion doesn't mean it can't be discussed, so I'm not sure what the relevance of saying "for me" is. The subject is why are mobile phones getting expensive, and my point was there must be a time where additional CPU/GPU performance becomes redundant because the mobile nature of the device. You'll never want to encode high resolution video or edit large resolution raw files on a mobile device.

At the end of day no matter what your opinion is, mobile phones aren't desktop replacements and they're not designed to be now or in the future. There's a reason why a tablet market exists along side mobile phones and why mobile phone sales haven't impacted laptop or desktop sales.

Even pro Samsung sites like Sammobile has said in their reviews:

We concluded in our Samsung DeX review that it isn’t a PC replacement and that power users will be annoyed. However, the accessory is great for basic usage like editing documents and browsing.

They also ran a poll of those who use DeX, the majority of users said they've given up on it or use it sparingly:

Results: Surprisingly, 41 percent of those who participated in this poll said they have given up using DeX as the novelty wears off. 31 percent say that they use it sparingly for specific tasks while 28 percent use DeX frequently.

Obviously I've never used a desktop on a train - but laptops are viable desktop replacements....

 

[AndyCr15]

The fact it's his opinion doesn't mean it can't be discussed, so I'm not sure what the relevance of saying "for me" is.

Agreed. I don't think I said it can't be discussed? I might have said you can't really tell someone their opinion. He said 'for me, I would like...' and then people are saying he's effectively wrong?

You'll never want to encode high resolution video

I encoded some 1080p on mine last week. Adobe has a video editor you can do some simple editing on.

Even pro Samsung sites like Sammobile has said in their reviews:

So, it's not for intensive stuff, but it has a use. Agreed.

They also ran a poll of those who use DeX, the majority of users said they've given up on it or use it sparingly

Again, not really relevant as we're talking about someone who said they would like a little more power as they use Dex. If others don't... how is that relevant?

Obviously I've never used a desktop on a train - but laptops are viable desktop replacements....

Agreed. Again, I'm not sure that's relevant to someone else wanting to use Dex on screens when they get to a location. I said this before, it's not relevant as we're talking about a user who has already said he is using Dex and would simply like more power. If we were in a discussion about what is better, sure, relevant. For the record, I would pick a laptop myself.

Anyway, clearly people just want to argue rather than accept someone uses Dex and would like more power for it... so I'll drop out of this thread.