Why aren't young people taking computer courses at school?

[Diagro]

So I think that’s the point. The kids are not learning it either through their own abilities or the fact that the majority of IT people in the know just go work in the industry.

Teachers don’t get paid enough if you want each and everyone to be an expert in the field. Teach at 20k or work in industry 35k+

GCSE IT is not even an option in some schools.

GCSE IT hasn't existed for years. It can only be done as a Vocational BTEC.

Also a specialist teacher on UPS can earn over 35k.

Every single student should leave school with an understanding of software and hardware, along with programming.

They then can choose to do a A level in CS if it interests them.

I feel people need to move on from what their experience was at school. Computing has moved on considerably in the last decade.

 

[Deleted User 298457]

GCSE IT hasn't existed for years. It can only be done as a Vocational BTEC.

Also a specialist teacher on UPS can earn over 35k.

Every single student should leave school with an understanding of software and hardware, along with programming.

They then can choose to do a A level in CS if it interests them.

I feel people need to move on from what their experience was at school. Computing has moved on considerably in the last decade.

Yet it isn't working, hence the thread/BBC headline.

 

[Vanquish-Storm]

GCSE IT hasn't existed for years. It can only be done as a Vocational BTEC.

Also a specialist teacher on UPS can earn over 35k.

Every single student should leave school with an understanding of software and hardware, along with programming.

They then can choose to do a A level in CS if it interests them.

I feel people need to move on from what their experience was at school. Computing has moved on considerably in the last decade.

I will reword it then, some schools offer no form of IT at GCSE level. Whether that be IT or CS.

You just said yourself they can’t find teachers for it. That hasn’t changed since I went to school. How many of those teachers earn above 35k? Is that the upper limit to be teaching IT/CS at high school?

I am no disagreeing that every student leaving school should have some form of good IT teaching but that’s not happening.

Are you saying the article is wrong then?

 

[Diagro]

I will reword it then, some schools offer no form of IT at GCSE level. Whether that be IT or CS.

You just said yourself they can’t find teachers for it. That hasn’t changed since I went to school. How many of those teachers earn above 35k? Is that the upper limit to be teaching IT/CS at high school?

I am no disagreeing that every student leaving school should have some form of good IT teaching but that’s not happening.

Are you saying the article is wrong then?

I'm in disagreement with it. Based off my experience. If a school doesn't offer it at all, serious questions should be asked to why.

 

[Vanquish-Storm]

I'm in disagreement with it. Based off my experience. If a school doesn't offer it at all, serious questions should be asked to why.

What are you disagreeing with exactly?

 

[Diagro]

What are you disagreeing with exactly?

Some of the generalised wording. Such as teachers not having a good understanding of career paths.

We do, but for our specific subjects.

Unfortunately the the leadership of the schools that seems to be missing the career link.

Schools also only give KS3 IT lessons 1 lesson per week, when other subjects have 2, 3 or 5 lessons per week. Its undervalued and schools don't seem to understand its importance.

Heck we get complaints from other subjects that students can't use PowerPoint or Microsoft word correctly. I've had a Spanish teacher say to my face "what are you guys doing...? They can't even use mail merge...".
Why is it all on IT/Computing teachers to teach digital skills? We don't have enough lesson time to deliver the national curriculum, never mind extra bits which may benefit other subjects.

The year 7 cohort this year, had many kids who couldn't even use a mouse and keyboard. One of my year 8 students has to use two hands to use a mouse...

For example, I know a school very close to me, which just scrapped its GCSE CS and A Level CS. Because the student demographic was below the level needed to undertake it and have all students pass.

They only care about the data, if a subject has students performing below their target grade, it's branded as failing. Then it's shut down. Happens all over the country. That in my view is the reason schools don't seem to be teaching students the required skills.

 

[Vanquish-Storm]

Some of the generalised wording. Such as teachers not having a good understanding of career paths.

We do, but for our specific subjects.

Unfortunately the the leadership of the schools that seems to be missing the career link.

Schools also only give KS3 IT lessons 1 lesson per week, when other subjects have 2, 3 or 5 lessons per week. Its undervalued and schools don't seem to understand its importance.

Heck we get complaints from other subjects that students can't use PowerPoint or Microsoft word correctly. I've had a Spanish teacher say to my face "what are you guys doing...? They can't even use mail merge...".
Why is it all on IT/Computing teachers to teach digital skills? We don't have enough lesson time to deliver the national curriculum, never mind extra bits which may benefit other subjects.

For example, I know a school very close to me, which just scrapped its GCSE CS and A Level CS. Because the student demographic was below the level needed to undertake it and have all students pass.

They only care about the data, if a subject has students performing below their target grade, it's branded as failing. Then it's shut down. Happens all over the country. That in my view is the reason schools don't seem to be teaching students the required skills.

So you seeing the article as a sort of personal attack on you? Or the teachers.

I can agree with you that it’s not the teachers say on if a subject it taught or not that comes from school leadership.

But then there are still teachers out there who are not the best in the field. Personally at college and uni I found the lecturers who had worked in the industry taught best they knew how it worked in the real world.

At school level there should be two forms of IT then if people can’t use word. People should not go into a job these days not knowing how to use word or windows. But that’s a different story!

 

[Diagro]

So you seeing the article as a sort of personal attack on you? Or the teachers.

I can agree with you that it’s not the teachers say on if a subject it taught or not that comes from school leadership.

But then there are still teachers out there who are not the best in the field. Personally at college and uni I found the lecturers who had worked in the industry taught best they knew how it worked in the real world.

I suppose, I'm taking it as an attack on IT/Computing teachers. Sorry about that.

They need to move away from the teachers, and onto the schools themselves.

If a teacher isn't skilled enough to teach their subject, the school needs to provide the training opportunities. Yet they don't.

 

[Vanquish-Storm]

I suppose, I'm taking it as an attack on IT/Computing teachers. Sorry about that.

They need to move away from the teachers, and onto the schools themselves.

If a teacher isn't skilled enough to teach their subject, the school needs to provide the training opportunities. Yet they don't.

No need to be sorry Pal! If you feel that way that way you feel that way. You have to defend what you think is right.

My take on it is not all IT/Cs Teachers will be good, but that’s the same for any subject.

But I completely agree it’s the schools/leadership team’s problem.

Train or employ the right people.

 

[gpuerrilla]

I'm in my 40s these days and when I was at school we didn't have the opportunity to take IT subjects at GCSE level. We had computer classes. But never a recognised course. If there had been a course at GCSE level open to me I'd have done it.

So can the younger folks explain why students aren't taking these IT based GCSE subjects these days? How come the take up rate is low?

This, or partly. Like yourself I am in my early 40s. I went to good schools but none of them had proper IT facilities and definitely no subjects taught on it. As I was leaving or left school in the late nineties I was lucky enough that my dad got a retirement pot where he bought me my first PC. I then used it and worked for a couple of years before embarking on a computer science degree. When I was at university there were people in my class that had programming under their belt and I really struggled in the modules as they were dead hard C++. I recovered in the other modules and faired better at Visual Basic and the machine programming.

I would have loved to have the choice of doing them at GCSE and A levels, if the kids are not utilising this opportunity (maybe they also have no option, or the classic - lets throw the RE teacher in to cover the IT classes as we cant afford a proper tutor) or getting the Raspberry Pi stuff that's out there then there is a serious issue.

The issue is that this generation is classed as digital natives, but as a dad of kids from 16 - 6, I can tell you that it's not an advantage at all. Because they've just "had" technology/apps/ devices, they've never had to find a solution to the problem, something is just there. It doesn't lead to a search for a solution, they just use what is there and it drives me crazy their lack of skills taught around this sort of stuff at school...The disconnect between education and the real world is just increasing year on year!

I have teaching skills and taught IT to settings for about three years till I went back into the technician/admin role. I have three kids myself 8 down to 2. I totally agree. The society we live in has shoehorned people into little creativity and pretty much teach essentials to pass the tests. The broad scope and fundamentals are lost.

It is not helped by the 'there's an app for that' mentality where people just now want to press one button and its solved for you. If it doesn't work they complain or throw it to the side. As mentioned this creep of IT is in every subject also makes it the scapegoat for stonewall thinking that lets throw anything that is IT related to the IT department as we cant be bothered to cope with learning anything new.

Also, final point, at school and workplaces now people throw budgets at 'lets get ipads'. People cant write with pens anymore, still have spelling mistakes even though a built in correction tool is there to use.. and then they have the audacity to demand we need training on how this ipad (or sometimes a Samsung tablet) works!!

 

[Cooler running]

I agree that working 1st or 2nd line on a helldesk will not pay well but also it's not really IT. Get to 3rd line and it starts to actually be diagnosing and fixing problems, maybe even writing code. All jobs start on crap money but be a half-decent BA or DevOps or DBA and the money should be decent.

I don't agree about the low job security and cut throat nature. Not in my experience (37 years in IT both client- and supply-side including more than ten years with Tier 1 consultancies). Maybe it's true for low skilled staff but good full stack developers for example are massively in demand and paid accordingly.

For sure, it's a broad industry and skilled people with good fundamentals are in demand.

The point was mostly that it's far from being automatically better than teaching, especially for peeps who have no degree or work experience.

 

[LordD]

When I was at school the only courses were ICT which was essentially learning the Office Suite of software products.

Definitely think kids should be learning this stuff at school, but not only that the Higher Education systems should apply themselves to stay relevant. Working in the networking field you'd be surprised how many people we interview doing / with a networking degree that have no applicable skills to the industry. In the current state it makes a lot more sense to hire a self educated individual who has applied themselves to learning what the industry demands through self study and industry qualifications.

I can't speak of any of the other IT fields and admittedly networking is a very specific / niche area, though vital none the less.

 

[skaif]

Another CS teacher weighing in here - have to agree with what @Diagro is saying. The onus shouldn't be on the CS teachers to teach digital literacy as the govt has a huge push toward teaching computational concepts etc.
The problem is they have gone too far and there's no balance. Scrapping ICT is as a subject was a big failure in my view as it meant that students who were not able were then pushed to do CS or even Business as a replacement in my experience.
The govt has also had a huge push for teachers to train and upskill and I think this has some way to go before there's real confidence in teaching the subject.
This is despite the changes being made and enforced 7 years ago. Some schools just have not caught up. That goes for primary and secondary schools.

The comment about pay is interesting. As a department head and fairly experienced teacher I managed to get to around 45k before moving abroad to teach. I didn't really think that pay was that bad, but many new teachers are put off by the low starting salary and then the progression each year which can be long and arduous depending on the school. My school had no issue with putting newly qualified teachers a fair way up the scale if they were competent but not all schools are like that.

 

[gpuerrilla]

We teach various forms of programming to key stage 3 students.
/snip
In the GCSE CS, they do networking and get the chance to make a network using networking Labs and real equipment.

The national curriculum tells all schools that they should be delivering this sort of stuff to all Key Stage 3 students. If a school isn't, then they need to be contacted and asked why.

I hope this is true but I very much doubt its that rich in knowledge. I will ask my nephew who is 17 and see his version of this. For the record his sister is a Dr now very smart, but as my wife often says "she has little common sense". Basically in tandem with being street-wise or the lack of it these days.

Another CS teacher weighing in here - have to agree with what @Diagro is saying. The onus shouldn't be on the CS teachers to teach digital literacy as the govt has a huge push toward teaching computational concepts etc.

I was teaching some core skills (essential) to mainly kids that left regular school but were not able to get into college etc. I was surprised how pathetic the support and guidance was regarding students trying to achieve the equivalent of GCSE ICT and I was having to get them to correct spelling grammar etc.

When I challenged the powers and other tutors they basically didn't offer any sympathy as they were so blinded by what I would describe as Olympic curling in getting them to write down answers to pass their English. Once the student was in ICT it was 'your job' to tidy up the regular mistakes and I was gobsmacked seeing them achieve the English stamp yet couldn't spell or string together a proper sentence it was really mind blowing.

 

[skaif]

I hope this is true but I very much doubt its that rich in knowledge. I will ask my nephew who is 17 and see his version of this. For the record his sister is a Dr now very smart, but as my wife often says "she has little common sense". Basically in tandem with being street-wise or the lack of it these days.

Why would it not be true? Whilst the quality of CS taught in schools will differ, the government has mandated CS to be taught in all schools. They have set out the programme of study at all key stages which you can see here https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...ulum-in-england-computing-programmes-of-study

As I said, there's no reason to doubt its not true when it's a requirement as set out by the DfE.

 

[gpuerrilla]

Why would it not be true? Whilst the quality of CS taught in schools will differ, the government has mandated CS to be taught in all schools.

It says it on the page you linked:

All local-authority-maintained schools should teach them.

Not must.. should. My post said "I very much doubt its that rich in knowledge." Meaning its alright talking about targets and programmes but how tangible are the end results? Just as you said perfectly the quality of CS taught in schools will differ, and sadly it shows. Check out post #160. I agree with it as I have seen it.

 

[skaif]

It says it on the page you linked: Not must.. should. My post said "I very much doubt its that rich in knowledge." Meaning its alright talking about targets and programmes but how tangible are the end results? Just as you said perfectly the quality of CS taught in schools will differ, and sadly it shows. Check out post #160. I agree with it as I have seen it.

Fair point but if a school were to be inspected and they are not incorporating the DfE program of study they will be in serious trouble.

Regarding pay there's an obvious issue. Its been somewhat remedied with some government funding and bursaries to get professionals and good quality teachers in but by no where near the level it needs to be. One of the reasons I left the UK sadly.

 

[gpuerrilla]

Yes I agree, and although I moved into teaching through the job in another industry before IT (circa six years in total experience), the exposure to teaching once you get into the nitty gritty is farsicle as the schools/entities are so obsessed with audit bodies like OFSTED/ETI they become focused on passing inspections or scoreboard targets that the real point of the job (letting the teachers - teach) is a waste of energy. My wife is also a qualified teacher and she left the profession a while ago.

I recall the golden handshake periods some ten years or so back but even friends we know that qualified as teachers like you moved abroad or some just quit as it was too stressful/embroiled in paperwork instead of letting the passion flow.

 

[mmj_uk]

They would rather get jobs as equality, diversity and inclusion officers, it's the future of the western economy. When China is colonising/weaponising space after having genocided their ethnic Uigur population with nobody caring, we'll still be divided and arguing about how systemically racist our countries are because 10% of the country don't have exactly 50% representation everywhere.

 

[Reality|Bites]

A proctologist superhero called the Coloniser huh?