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Why did I wait :(
- Thread starter JonnyG1982
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Nvidia do make great quality gpu's but, Price for Performance is Nvidia's Major Down Fall. (I'll make the recent 760 the exception, But the 7950's overclocked had this performance 18months ago arguably at greater cost back then!!)
The other major problem with the 660,670 and 680 ilk is the memory quantity and bandwidth.
Hes a real life situation.
My Bro had 2x660ti's in sli inintially on a single monitor and wanted to run 3 screens at 5700x1080i in BF3.
The 2x660ti's could only manage surround on medium generating 60fps-70fps vsyned.
He was used to gaming in ultra on a single screen and wasnt happy playing his favourite game on medium with 3 monitors so he purchased another 660ti.
The game (bf3) could now only be played at high settings with 3x660ti's (5700x1080p).
The 3x660ti would crash his pc on ultra settings with 3 screens at 5700x1080p!!!!
Obviously he was distraught, he'd worked his nuts off to pay for 3 cards costing approx £750 and discovered that that 2Gb of GDDR5 was not enought to play battlefield on ultra with 3 screens.
So what happened next?
He bought 3x7950's but only managed to get two working because he'd damaged the third pcle slot pulling the third 660ti out to see if there were issues causing poor performance with this third card, such as conflicts or not being recognised by system. (all cards were working when installed)
Here's the important thing he can now play battlefield 3 MP using the 2x7950's in ultra 5760x1080p at minimium frames of 70fps+ and 3x660ti couldnt even run it at those settings.(Crashed immediately) Why did nvidia spec 2gb when many people use or aspire to use high res 4k and 5760x1080p.
The other interesting thing is the flagship Titan, which is amazing and i'd love to own one but again £800-£900 for 30-35% in BF3 MP over an overclocked £220-£240 7950. I just cant justify it in my mind. Some can and do!! I'd rather buy 2x7950's which is faster than a Titan and take a weeks vacation somewhere lol!!!
The Titan pushes high end technology into the consumer market and we need these amazing products to exert upward pressure on the limits of performance but its certainly no value for money.
Just my opinion.
I'm no AMD fanboy/Nvidia hater i just want the best performance for my money, thats all really.
The other major problem with the 660,670 and 680 ilk is the memory quantity and bandwidth.
Hes a real life situation.
My Bro had 2x660ti's in sli inintially on a single monitor and wanted to run 3 screens at 5700x1080i in BF3.
The 2x660ti's could only manage surround on medium generating 60fps-70fps vsyned.
He was used to gaming in ultra on a single screen and wasnt happy playing his favourite game on medium with 3 monitors so he purchased another 660ti.
The game (bf3) could now only be played at high settings with 3x660ti's (5700x1080p).
The 3x660ti would crash his pc on ultra settings with 3 screens at 5700x1080p!!!!
Obviously he was distraught, he'd worked his nuts off to pay for 3 cards costing approx £750 and discovered that that 2Gb of GDDR5 was not enought to play battlefield on ultra with 3 screens.
So what happened next?
He bought 3x7950's but only managed to get two working because he'd damaged the third pcle slot pulling the third 660ti out to see if there were issues causing poor performance with this third card, such as conflicts or not being recognised by system. (all cards were working when installed)
Here's the important thing he can now play battlefield 3 MP using the 2x7950's in ultra 5760x1080p at minimium frames of 70fps+ and 3x660ti couldnt even run it at those settings.(Crashed immediately) Why did nvidia spec 2gb when many people use or aspire to use high res 4k and 5760x1080p.
The other interesting thing is the flagship Titan, which is amazing and i'd love to own one but again £800-£900 for 30-35% in BF3 MP over an overclocked £220-£240 7950. I just cant justify it in my mind. Some can and do!! I'd rather buy 2x7950's which is faster than a Titan and take a weeks vacation somewhere lol!!!
The Titan pushes high end technology into the consumer market and we need these amazing products to exert upward pressure on the limits of performance but its certainly no value for money.
Just my opinion.
I'm no AMD fanboy/Nvidia hater i just want the best performance for my money, thats all really.
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Soldato
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The thing is...the GTX780 should really had been the "true" GTX680, yet it was release over a whole year later, and with a even premium smacked on top of it. At £550+ and the relatively small performance advantage over the £400 680 at launch, it should had really been launch as the same time/gen as the GTX600 series, rather than GTX700 series.
So basically we had to put up with it being late, but overpriced as well.
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Totally Agree, this is how it is IMO.
The Gk110 chip in the GTX780 are made from silicon with faulty cudu's and rops deactivated from production Titan chips. It makes sense financially for Nvidia to use the faulty/deactivated chips from the Titan which are still faster than a 680 to release another product that uses the chip Gk110 chipset over the GK104. (This reduces rejects and increases production efficiency) Its pure marketing. Nvidia turn a faulty Gk110 superchip into a high performance enthusiast chip. The consumer is always second to profit...........I suppose intel are the same with Sandy Bridge e, 8 core Xeon,Then 6 core 3930, then 4 core 3920. all based on single piece of silicon.
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I agree, I don't know why Nvidia released the Titan, I can't imagine they made much if anything on it, sales numbers must have been tiny.
All manufacturers use 'faulty' chips in lower end parts it's standard practice, I say 'faulty' as it can be either whole clusters just don't work at all or only work at lower speeds.
All manufacturers use 'faulty' chips in lower end parts it's standard practice, I say 'faulty' as it can be either whole clusters just don't work at all or only work at lower speeds.
The Gk110 is used in supercomputer processing arrays and not just in pc gpu's so they have probably sold quite a few to research and govermental organisations. With that in mind Nvidia probably have a vast quantity of fully functional Titan chips and also an abundance of inferior chips available to sustain the gtx780 market for some time yet.
I wouldnt bet against the gk110 fully functional chip being the top mainstream gpu next year, and a new 22nm or less process being at the pinnacle/high end still commanding the £800-900.
IMO GK110 with be pitched against next gen HD8000 series AMD gpu.
Its gonna be interesting how the battle for gpu dominance plays out in 2014...
I first saw this and thought TLDR, but then I started and OP very well written and expresses my sentiments about all this very well. I was always waiting for an upgrade for my GTX 570 but the price of the GTX 680 never dropped really the whole time it was out and the GTX 670 wasn't enough of an upgrade, so when the GTX 770 came out at less than the GTX 680 (!, even though it's basically the same card) I decided to jump right on it on the assumption that nvidia's prices, once again, won't reduce much and at least I'd get as long as possible with the current gen. In hindsight I too would have just purchased a GTX 680 at launch!
Sorry but it wasn't. The 780 is based on the GK110, not the GK100. I don't why people keep saying this.
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I purchased a second hand 680 some months from launch for approx £350 (following the sale of my 480s for about £260 all in). I purchased a new 680 this year a few months ago for approx £350.
It is probably the most I ever spent on GPUs tbh, and I would be lying to say the 780s are not tempting, but the OP has a good point about the expense and the pricing strategy employed by Nvidia.
As of right now, the 780s are too expensive - but they seem to be selling well, so Nvidia was onto something for sure!
It is probably the most I ever spent on GPUs tbh, and I would be lying to say the 780s are not tempting, but the OP has a good point about the expense and the pricing strategy employed by Nvidia.
As of right now, the 780s are too expensive - but they seem to be selling well, so Nvidia was onto something for sure!
Except that it's wrong, the 780 was never meant to be the "true" 680. It is based on the GK110.
You are talking about binning, and everyone does it. Nvidia, AMD, Intel. It's not something that Nvidia has just decided to do with the Titan.
Hang on...
580 = GF110
560 = GF114
680 = GK104 - the update to the mid-range part not the update to the high-end part.
680 should in theory have been the GK110, just nV decided it could make way more money this way.
Well, in terms of the technology, the most sensible approach is to buy after each shrink in manufacturing process (first 28nm cards, first 20nm cards etc). That's where the really big performance gains come in, whereas refreshes within a process will typically be smaller.
I didn't buy right at the start of 28nm this time around - mainly because I was expecting the "full" Kepler GK110 part to arrive much sooner than it did (around July / August 2012). In hindsight, yes, a pair of GTX680s on release would probably have been the way to go. As it is I have a pair of 780s which will have a much shorter lifespan - I expect to see 20nm parts from both companies in mid 2014. The 20nm cards will significantly outperform anything on the market right now. My GTX780s give me ~30% better performance than a pair of GTX680s would have, but at about half the lifespan.
As far as the pricing goes - I agree that the pricing of the Titan has been a big loss to the consumer. The level of uptake at this price point has been alarmingly high, and has shown that there is demand for such insanely priced hardware. It seems that a ~£800 price point for the highest spec hardware is viable, and it seems likely this pricing will continue. It would have been far better for everyone if the Titan had sold very few units.
As far as the rest of the range goes, it isn't too far off what we've paid historically. Taking into account inflation, a ~£500 price for the high end cards is roughly in-line with what we've seen in the past. The big exception to this rule was the 5870 / GTX480 generation. Here we had the benefit of great exchange rates ($2 per £), and also the big push that AMD was making for market share at the time. We should not expect to see that kind of pricing again for a while.
I didn't buy right at the start of 28nm this time around - mainly because I was expecting the "full" Kepler GK110 part to arrive much sooner than it did (around July / August 2012). In hindsight, yes, a pair of GTX680s on release would probably have been the way to go. As it is I have a pair of 780s which will have a much shorter lifespan - I expect to see 20nm parts from both companies in mid 2014. The 20nm cards will significantly outperform anything on the market right now. My GTX780s give me ~30% better performance than a pair of GTX680s would have, but at about half the lifespan.
As far as the pricing goes - I agree that the pricing of the Titan has been a big loss to the consumer. The level of uptake at this price point has been alarmingly high, and has shown that there is demand for such insanely priced hardware. It seems that a ~£800 price point for the highest spec hardware is viable, and it seems likely this pricing will continue. It would have been far better for everyone if the Titan had sold very few units.
As far as the rest of the range goes, it isn't too far off what we've paid historically. Taking into account inflation, a ~£500 price for the high end cards is roughly in-line with what we've seen in the past. The big exception to this rule was the 5870 / GTX480 generation. Here we had the benefit of great exchange rates ($2 per £), and also the big push that AMD was making for market share at the time. We should not expect to see that kind of pricing again for a while.
The GK110 was designed first and foremost to be a HPC card. I doubt there will ever be a fully functional GK110 chip produced. It would cost too much for too little gain. Also, I don't think nvidia have a vast quantity of titan's just lying around. It would be a complete waste of money.
There won't be a fully functional GK110 chip next year. The titan was a niche product, the ability to switch between high clocks for gaming to lower clocks and fully enabled DP mode for compute. It won't ever be a mainstream part. Also the next generation cards are going to be 20nm.
We are still waiting to see what AMD are going to bring out this year. Is it going to be next gen or a refresh of this generation's products? Some people say 20nm is ready and others say it won't be ready until 2014.
Just have to wait and see.
If it's coming out in September it will not be 20nm.
A ~2560-SP part seems likely, and could potentially give the GTX780 a run for its money. Whatever the spec though, it will be 28nm.
Nope, the 110,114 etc. is for refreshes.
Take Fermi as an example, like you did,
First generation:-
GF100 - GTX 480
GF104 - GTX 460
Refresh:-
GF110 - GTX 580
GF114 - GTX 560
Your theory is wrong because of this. The only thing the 680 could have been in theory is the GK100.
Except there was no GK100, rumours about it been scrapped were surfing even before the release of the 7000 series from AMD.
So I don't know what the "true" 680 might have been or if there ever was one. All I do know, is the GK110 was never it.
I heard late october. But I suppose that doesn't change anything, it will probably be like you say, a 28nm part. AMD tend to be much better at stopping information leaks, so we won't know anything for definite until they are released
Pure speculation from you two. Only rumours about GK100, for all we know it never even existed 
Fact is, in reality:
There is only one "big" Kepler - GK 110 is a first generation part, not a refresh
There is only one "mid range" Kepler - GK104
Sure, Fermi had a refresh (400 series/500 series) but Kepler has not.
770 is NOT GK114, it is GK104, so your theory that 700 series is a refresh series is flawed, no?
Fact is, in reality:
There is only one "big" Kepler - GK 110 is a first generation part, not a refresh
There is only one "mid range" Kepler - GK104
Sure, Fermi had a refresh (400 series/500 series) but Kepler has not.
770 is NOT GK114, it is GK104, so your theory that 700 series is a refresh series is flawed, no?
Soldato
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In hindsight i really regret not buying a GTX 680 straight away. At the time i decided it wasen't enough of an improvement over my gtx580 & would wait for the GTX780. If I knew over a year later that the nvidia graphics line would be in such a state I wouldn't of bothered waiting & just paid for that GTX680 on day 1.
Right now dual cards have jumped from the £500-600 area to an eye watering £800+ area. Gone are the days of 4870x2 for sub £400. We also have a new highest price ever for single gpu cards (excluding asus mars cards) in the form of Titan. This (unquestionably fast) card set a new benchmark for seeing quite how much people are prepared to spend on a single gpu.
With enough people willing to shed the cash nvidia brought out the GTX 780 for the usual £400-450....i mean new rip off/recession proof £550. In comparison to Titan its a steal, & this is what nvidia will tell people, but lets get realistic, compared to gtx770/7970 its ridiculously expensive & doesnt justify the new price tag.
The GTX 780 should have been the new series with the usual 15%+ improvement for the same price as the previous gens i.e. £400-440. Instead as Titan laid the groundworks for higher price points nvidia pounced on this. And so they come out at £550. 20% improvement or so for basically 75% more price. The GTX8800/R9700pro etc had bigger performance gains over previous gens without seeing the need for such premium. Nvidia must be loling hard.
The overpriced GTX680 gets rebadged to the GTX770. Nvidia hoping to fool some people? This should have been the GTX680 boost or pro or ultra or even GX685, it doesnt warrant GTX770 name. Yes it did the right thing of bringing a slightly faster version at a cheaper price but this "cheaper price" is what it should cost, its what it should have cost when the 7970GHZ went down to the £325 mark. Its Wwaaaayyy overdue. Its taken the best part of 10 months to bring the price down to level the 7970ghz.
Then theres the pricing of the older cards now. Another mess. So we have the GTX 680 at £330+ area? Hang on the GTX770 can be had for cheaper than this! We have the GTX670 at (with the exception of overclockers) the best part of £280+, again the GTX770 can be found for £293 (on certain other reputable site). And the GTX660ti which is more expensive than the GTX760. So basically the GTX680/670/660ti are all now stupidly priced. They are now pointless cards unless they drop in price, & im not buying the whole "its good for people wanting sli", you're getting overcharged.
We have the GTX770 released with 3rd party coolers because supposidly the Titan cooler costs more? Rubbish!. If this is true then why is it the GTX780 3rd party cooler designs cost more than the Titan cooler ones??? Further to this look at the Gigabyte GTX770 windforce, this card has the same 3x cooler
as the GTX780 3x cooler yet it is one of the cheapest GTX 770 prices going. How is this possible? Either the Titan cooler doesnt cost any extra or its clear that nvidia or retailers are ripping a new one. I guess because all the brands are releasing overclocked/3rd party cooler GTX770s they are not bothering to really charge a premium (rip off) price, whilst on the GTX780 gigabyte & EVGA with their "Cheaper" coolers are charging more compared to the "Expensive" stock titan cooler...hhhmmmm must be the overclocks. The same overclocks
which appear free on the gtx770 variety.
And again one has to wonder why the GTX780 gigabyte & EVGA cards commands premiums of £50+ in this country yet in the states its like 10$ (EVGA GTX780 ACX). Get the **** out! Thankfully as of today i notice one particular site has dropped their gigabyte 780 to £535 area. Still, as per the GTX770, if the titan cooler costs so much can you drop it further gigabyte/retailers?, after all, you're saving money using your own cooler...arent you??? Make up your minds.
Have to give credit to AMD for working with their drivers, dropping their prices, bundling games. Its a pity that as per the issue with the gtx680, I just don't feel the performance boost is quite there coming from a gtx580, especially as Ive waited so long i dont feel like cracking now but man the itch is bad. My only complaint is I wish AMD would at least hint
at what to expect from their next card, so that for us people sitting on the fence we can decide whether to just give up & buy whats available or wait. If they came out & just said "Expect GTX780 beating performance at a more reasonable price" then that would be enough to convince me to wait longer but I would hate to wait yet a further 3 months + for AMD to just do an nvidia & release another next gen card with a okish performance increase at a new higher stupid price going "Well they did it!".
Im a pc gamer, fps all the way for me. But can't say im impressed right now with these gpus. I have the money to buy a GTX780 right now & would love one but i refuse to pay the price that nvidia is milking. Its like ****ing cinema popcorn, we would all happily pay a bit of a premium but it gets to a stage when you just have to say "seriously? No!". Feels like their trying to drive people away to consoles. Sulk over, had to let off steam, its only my silly opinion. Apologies about the grammer. Feel free to mock away
I understand what your saying essentially saying you don't agree with the prices Nvidia are charging but at the end of the day they exist to make money. If you think they are charging to much then don't buy their products and if enough people feel the same then prices drops will follow.
Moan all you want but if you purchase something like a high end GPU (lets face most of us don't really need it given how demanding games are at the moment) your effectively validating Nvidia's pricing strategy.
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Tempted to do the same. Can get the gtx 770 for £300 delivered. Its around £515 for the cheapest gtx 780 delivered. £215 premium (approx 71% more) for like 20% better performance. I cannot see either amd or nvidia dropping price further til Q1 of 2014 earliest. AMD will bring out a similar performing card to the GTX780 in sept/oct but also command £500+. Like last time, waiting around for price drops would seem unlikely for the foreseeable future.
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