Why Is Nvidia So Nasty To ATI?

Rroff · 9 May 2010 at 20:57

jigger said:
What is your point Rroff ?

Final8y said:
If the disable switch was not put in then there would not be no need for any discussion on the matter.

There are valid technical reasons for not running the resolve code on unsupported hardware... that said I do take issue with the fact that its not presented under some kinda advanced menu as an unsupported option.

My point is that saying "nVidia disabled AA on ATI cards in Batman AA" is mis-guided at best as its implying intent on the part of nVidia and mostly used as a way to attack nVidia.

To again highlight my point if we take mass effect 2 as an example... another game thats based on the same engine as Batman AA and has the same issues with AA but ships with no AA support at all... now say the developer approached ATI and nVidia and asked them to help implement AA on their respective hardware and ATI complied and presented working code but nVidia dawdled and didn't have anything to offer by the time the game shipped... and then reviewers noticed that on ATI hardware the game had the option to enable AA but on nVidia the option was missing... wouldn't the nVidia crowd look a bit silly baying about how ATI had disabled AA on nVidia cards?

Final8y · 9 May 2010 at 21:08

Rroff said:
There are valid technical reasons for not running the resolve code on unsupported hardware... that said I do take issue with the fact that its not presented under some kinda advanced menu as an unsupported option.

My point is that saying "nVidia disabled AA on ATI cards in Batman AA" is mis-guided at best as its implying intent on the part of nVidia and mostly used as a way to attack nVidia.

To again highlight my point if we take mass effect 2 as an example... another game thats based on the same engine as Batman AA and has the same issues with AA but ships with no AA support at all... now say the developer approached ATI and nVidia and asked them to help implement AA on their respective hardware and ATI complied and presented working code but nVidia dawdled and didn't have anything to offer by the time the game shipped... and then reviewers noticed that on ATI hardware the game had the option to enable AA but on nVidia the option was missing... wouldn't the nVidia crowd look a bit silly baying about how ATI had disabled AA on nVidia cards?

There are many valid reasons for me not to turn up to work, but that does not mean that those are the reasons why i did not turn up.

Batman has been proven to work with the NV AA, just like physX card injunction with ATI cards.
No reports of issues related to the usage of both because of the ATI card so the reason is of no importance in theses cases.

Rroff · 9 May 2010 at 21:19

It hasn't been proved to work... it appeared to work... no one took the time to throughly test it to make sure it did.

Final8y · 9 May 2010 at 21:42

Rroff said:
It hasn't been proved to work... it appeared to work... no one took the time to throughly test it to make sure it did.

So your saying that No ATi user has played through the game with NV AA & PhysX & found the resultants to be satisfactory.

Martini1991 · 9 May 2010 at 21:46

Rroff said:
It hasn't been proved to work... it appeared to work... no one took the time to throughly test it to make sure it did.

Rofl

jorzeh · 9 May 2010 at 21:49

Rroff said:
It hasn't been proved to work... it appeared to work... no one took the time to throughly test it to make sure it did.

/Bonk /Donk /Bonk /Donk /Dang /Prang

You will get my medical bills for my concusion. :mad:

no_1_dave · 9 May 2010 at 21:53

Is everyone forgetting back in the days of HL2..?
Everything with the source engine worked a lot better on ATI hardware but there was no real reason why...
ATI must have paid a lot for that back then! Even the crappy X800pro beat the 6800GT in HL2...

Rroff · 9 May 2010 at 21:54

Final8y said:
So your saying that No ATi user has played through the game with NV AA & PhysX & found the resultants to be satisfactory.

I'm saying theres this little thing called quality control... you don't just slap something as problematic as AA + deferred shaders into the engine, get someone to run through it ingame a couple of times and say it works... well some developers do but thats when we get nicely bug ridden games...

Final8y · 9 May 2010 at 22:09

Rroff said:
I'm saying theres this little thing called quality control... you don't just slap something as problematic as AA + deferred shaders into the engine, get someone to run through it ingame a couple of times and say it works... well some developers do but thats when we get nicely bug ridden games...

Enough ATI users have played through with NV AA by now for such related bugs to have come to the surface which none have been reported.
Its more imported to focus on the bugs that do exist than a possibility of one because it was not tested before hand which proves neither there is nor isn't.
But testing subsequently has thus for shown none.

The majority of software has bugs, claiming the false reason of perfection does not hold water.

Rroff · 9 May 2010 at 22:13

Final8y said:
Enough ATI users have played through with NV AA by now for such related bugs to have come to the surface which none have been reported.

... are you really seriously saying that months of post release incidental evidence makes a case for it having been released without proper testing in the first place?

Final8y · 9 May 2010 at 22:19

Rroff said:
... are you really seriously saying that months of post release incidental evidence makes a case for it having been released without proper testing in the first place?

No in not but i'm making a case for your comment below.

Rroff said:
It hasn't been proved to work... it appeared to work... no one took the time to thoroughly test it to make sure it did.

Its been thoroughly tested now.

queamin · 10 May 2010 at 01:04

To be honest at the moment a lot of people don't trust nvidia and that is why some people will think the worst of them and to be honest i don't blame them.
If nvidia acted better in the last few years instead of being a bully,may be some people would think better of them.

johny dolan · 10 May 2010 at 02:30

Nvidia have pulled dirty tricks in the past and now they have a reputation for underhanded behaviour that will stick.

from now on when something looks underhand they will be deemed to of done the dirty even if they didn't and they only have themselves to blame for this.

They are no longer seen as reputable company in the eyes of many of their customers.

Ordokai · 10 May 2010 at 07:14

Batman AA works fine on ATI cards in the demo. (note: a considerably -less- optimized pre-release version) AA selectively disabled for ATI cards in the retail version.

It felt really, really nasty. It was so blatantly obvious exactly why they paid the devs to block that particular feature for competitor cards, It's one of the most basic and visually apparent IQ enhancements, their plan was so devious. Even the most PC illiterate bloke, they thought, would notice it and think 'wow, this game looks so much better on nvidia cards, LOOK AT ALL THOSE JAGGED LINES !" :rolleyes:

The whole re-branding fiasco was bad enough, but this... this was the first time I really started noticing how underhanded Green can be, a whole new level. "Optimization" my arse. Intel pulled the same kind of **** with amd by paying manufacturers and distributors to avoid, cancel and postpone AMD products. Guess what, the EU fined them for $1.5 billion !

And while the current mischievous doings by nvidia are nowhere near that serious, given the trend continues we might see some rather entertaining court action sooner or later. Moreover, if something like this were to coincide with a period of their sales stagnation such as at present, it could very well -slay- the vile, green beast once and for all. (ok that last bit was over-the-top, but I couldn't resist)

Naturally the demise of nvidia, unlikely as it may be, would probably mean bad things for us consumers. Then again, it could actually help the market finally sprout some new competition given the barrage of anti-monopoly directives from the EU. (something I would very much like to see considering the cocky pricing as of late)

- Ordokai

jigger · 10 May 2010 at 14:52

Ordokai said:
Naturally the demise of nvidia, unlikely as it may be, would probably mean bad things for us consumers. Then again, it could actually help the market finally sprout some new competition given the barrage of anti-monopoly directives from the EU. (something I would very much like to see considering the cocky pricing as of late)

- Ordokai

Well Nvidia have been dead with regards to graphics cards for sometime now and things are not that bad. If Nvidia went under ATI would just produce more cards and prices would more than likely come down. Short term to medium term things would probably improve. After that someone would step in to fill the gap Nvidia have created soon enough.

Naff8000 · 10 May 2010 at 15:28

Rroff said:
ATI is just taking the "moral high ground" because they can't compete with nVidia toe to toe with developer relationships...

So if a leading company runs around disposing toxic waste in rivers whilst the 2nd company doesn't is the 2nd company taking the "moral high ground" because they can't compete with them?
Nvidia have acted terribly over the past few years and deserve every piece of negative attention they get.

wolvers · 10 May 2010 at 15:33

The physx fiasco is what has really put me off giving NV my money, for now. Not that I'm really that bothered about having kit that supports it, the games aren't amazing and the effects are seemingly just for show at the moment, but blocking the use of it ,even if I choose to buy one of their cards to be dedicated to it, just makes them look so bad. Especially in a platform where hardware choice was one of the main things that drew me in all those years ago.

It amazes me that Roff still spends so much of his time defending NV on, somewhat flimsy, technical grounds. Surely it's obvious that people don't care what the reasons/excuses are, even if they have some kind of, barely, valid background to them.

Marine-RX179 · 10 May 2010 at 16:05

Well...as a bystander who's not gonna take side and join this arguement, I think it would be fair to say Rroff you are wasting your time trying to use logic to reason with people who already with their mind made up and only choose to see what they want too see, hear what they want to hear...no matter how right you think or know you are.

Rroff · 10 May 2010 at 16:08

Naff8000 said:
So if a leading company runs around disposing toxic waste in rivers whilst the 2nd company doesn't is the 2nd company taking the "moral high ground" because they can't compete with them?
Nvidia have acted terribly over the past few years and deserve every piece of negative attention they get.

Thats a rather terrible analogy. If ATI had a spotless past it would be a different situation.

wolvers69 said:
It amazes me that Roff still spends so much of his time defending NV on, somewhat flimsy, technical grounds. Surely it's obvious that people don't care what the reasons/excuses are, even if they have some kind of, barely, valid background to them.

I'm not defending nVidia and if nVidia had disabled AA on ATI cards in Batman intentionally I'd have been the first one complaining. I'm more interested in the politics of the situations which is where people really should be looking. If nVidia used strong arm tactics to prevent ATI from getting a looking in at supporting the title then they should have the book thrown at them. Unfortunatly due to the public misconception focus is on entirely the wrong aspect and nVidia will get away with it if they did do something wrong and if ATI wasn't properly doing their job that gets swept under the table and never comes to light either. The hysteria about nVidia "disabling" AA on ATI cards in Batman just obfuscates the real issues to the benefit of the companies involved.

Final8y · 10 May 2010 at 17:30

Rroff said:
Thats a rather terrible analogy. If ATI had a spotless past it would be a different situation.

I'm not defending nVidia and if nVidia had disabled AA on ATI cards in Batman intentionally I'd have been the first one complaining. I'm more interested in the politics of the situations which is where people really should be looking. If nVidia used strong arm tactics to prevent ATI from getting a looking in at supporting the title then they should have the book thrown at them. Unfortunatly due to the public misconception focus is on entirely the wrong aspect and nVidia will get away with it if they did do something wrong and if ATI wasn't properly doing their job that gets swept under the table and never comes to light either. The hysteria about nVidia "disabling" AA on ATI cards in Batman just obfuscates the real issues to the benefit of the companies involved.

In your personal opinion.