Will I notice the difference upgrading from Diamond 9.1s in my home theatre?

Dominic-Toretto · 13 Jul 2024 at 07:47

Hi, hope everyone is well! I would appreciate some advice regarding audio as it is an area I am not that well versed in. I currently have the below setup:

Current Setup:
Centre: Wharfedale Diamond 9cs
Fronts: Wharfedale Diamond 9.1
Surrounds: Wharfedale Diamond 9.1
Rears: Wharfedale Diamond 9.1
Subwoofers: Wharfedale SW150 x2
AVR: Denon X2500H

Existing Room:

I only use this setup for movie watching. I appreciate the Diamond 9.1s are quite old now, they have served me well, and overall I am happy with them. My only complaint (perhaps this is a limitation of my AVR), when listening to some films with heavy use of surround, if I crank the volume loud to -10 from reference level I can hear some clipping. I was thinking of upgrading my fronts to towers, with higher sensitivity, for more volume and possibly upgraded sound?

I was thinking of swapping my fronts to a pair of Wharfedale 12.3s, but will I notice the difference or is this a pointless upgrade? It would be nice to get a sound quality upgrade rather than a increase in volume. I know some people recommend the EVO 4.2s but I prefer the look of the towers.

Thanks

Dominic-Toretto · 14 Jul 2024 at 15:16

hornetstinger said:
Changing to speakers that are more efficient will help, those 9.1 are 86db so getting speakers that are 91db will half as much power for same actual dB output. But I wouldn't recommend budget towers- better to stick with standmounts for the money.

I'd save up for the Evo but they are 4ohm so you'd likely need to upgrade your AVR anyway as they're a harder load than your existing diamonds.

What happens when you use a much higher crossover say 160hz for the speakers? Maybe you need more power, but you can't add power amplifiers to that 2500

Also if you do change the L/R speakers you want to buy the matching center.

That's a fair sized room so bigger speakers thensubwoofers might be recommended

Hi, thanks for the advice. I am open to the EVO 4.4s, with a EVO 4C in the centre eventually. Is this a better solution? The only thing I am concerned about is the AVR powering them reading your 4ohm comment. Will my 2500x be okay or do I need to upgrade that to? I thought I could run them at 8ohm and because its higher sensitivity it would be louder and need less power?
I have not tried a higher crossover, it happens very rarely, and only when all my surround speakers are engaged at loud volume, that is what led be to believe the 2500 was topping out power wise.

john_smith said:
I can't help with the questions, but the room looks beautiful. Congrats.

Thanks

Chris1712 said:
You might get more impact from an AVR change with DIRAC or other fancy room correction. Also, that room is begging for a scope screen not 16:9!

Thanks for the advise, I have run Audyssey and that made a huge difference. I am trying to hold off on an amp until I am ready to do atmos. I put 16:9 in as I watch a lot of 16:9 content

hornetstinger said:
There's some evo speakers on facebook marketplace, one near cardiff another near kidderminister, the latter has matching center

Thanks, I have my eye on these! Potentially with a EVO 4C as a centre.

Dominic-Toretto · 14 Jul 2024 at 15:40

hornetstinger said:
Also consider the large center, as it's most important speaker in HT.

Wharfedale Evo 4.C Centre Speaker

Experience the evolution of affordable Hi-Fi with the Wharfedale Evo 4.C Centre Speaker. Immerse yourself in stunning sound and groundbreaking design.

www.hifix.co.uk

Yep, it looks a beast! I have my eye on this to match with the Evo 4.4. Think I will notice a difference from my Diamond 9.1s lol?

Dominic-Toretto · 15 Jul 2024 at 14:02

Just ordered the Evo 4.4's and Evo 4C, getting delivered tomorrow.

Fingers crossed they are a big upgrade!

Dominic-Toretto · 15 Jul 2024 at 15:59

hornetstinger said:
Is a huge center speaker

Wharfedale Evo 4.c Tenet (sound demo) home theater

Wharfedale Evo 4.c Tenet opening opera scene (sound demo) home theater

www.youtube.com

Yep, looks massive! I have no idea how it is going to sound. I thought my current Diamond 9CS sounded amazing lol :cry:

Dominic-Toretto · 15 Jul 2024 at 22:08

hornetstinger said:
Saw your post on avforums. FYI BK subs are good but for HT they are surpassed by other sub brands. That does look like a large room so use this to get an idea what you will need. I had a SW-150 it's ok for a bedroom system, but in a large space you'll be missing a lot of low frequencies and limited in output.

How much subwoofer output capability do you need in your system?

Dear AVF members The table below lists CEA-2010 output rated subwoofers in order of their estimated ability to support user listening levels (relative to reference) in rooms of varying sizes. For some it may be self-explanatory but if you would like to know how to use the table and how and why...

www.avforums.com

I'd say amp upgrade is next thing, and if you are into 2 channel stereo, you could look at a decent stereo integrated amplifier. THis will offer superior sound quality to a AVR (for stereo mode) Diamond 9.1 will be fine for surrounds, or you could move 9.1 to atmos buying evo standmount for rears, again depends on how many channels you're going for

Haha small world! Thanks for the link I will work out the measurements and see where it lands me. From glancing at the table it looks like one SVS PB1000 might not be enough lol.

Regarding the amp upgrade I know you said the speakers were 4ohm and the avr would have more load because of this. Looking at the wharfedale site it says Nominal Impedance8Ω Compatible. Will this be okay for a while with my x2500h?

I thought because of the 3db increase in sensitivity that it would use half the power of the Diamond 9.1s at the same volume?

I wasn't really planning on a avr update anytime soon and I can't use an external amp like an emotiva with this avr. Eventually I will upgrade to a 11 channel Denon but it was planned to be in a few years. Thanks for the help

Dominic-Toretto · 15 Jul 2024 at 22:25

hornetstinger said:
Yes the big Evo are more efficient so require less power to teach same spl but they're lower impedance so harder load on the amp. 4.3 ohm.

Set speakers to small 60hz

For two channel avrs can be a bit crap, which once you get decent speakers you can notice . But not so much with budgets speakers like the diamonds. If possible try and borrow a good stereo amp that way best possible sound from the speakers then go back to the avr. Your Denon lacks pre outs so can't add power amplifiers not stereo integrated so you'd need a new one.

Pb1000 is only 10" . I'd say you'd want a couple of 12" ported box subs in that room at least if that is converted attack that will have large area

Thanks for all the help. I will take it on board! Will post updates tomorrow when the Evo's arrive

Dominic-Toretto · 16 Jul 2024 at 16:32

Dominic-Toretto · 16 Jul 2024 at 16:36

The EVO 4's arrived today

. Got them all setup, and calibrated with Audyssey. Very happy, the quality of the cabinets and speakers is amazing. I was not expecting much sound difference, but these are much better than my Diamond 9.1s, much fuller and more clarity and detail. I feel like I was missing sound before after listening to these lol. I have also noticed running these at -20 from reference is so loud, before I would have to run -10 for similar volume with my 9.1s. Trying to be careful with volume so they do not clip or anything like that. But yeah, super happy! Thanks everyone for the help and advice!

Dominic-Toretto · 16 Jul 2024 at 16:46

Does anyone know why the rubber around the cones is discoloured like this on both Evo 4.4s? The Evo 4C does not have this, nor do any of my Diamond 9.1s Is it normal?
Is it safe to wipe off / touch? Don't want to damage the speaker or anything

Dominic-Toretto · 16 Jul 2024 at 16:48

hornetstinger said:
Perhaps just some mould or the chemical resiude from being in storage?

I'd wipe with microfibre cloth and some distilled water.

Thanks, I will try this later on

Dominic-Toretto · 16 Jul 2024 at 16:55

hornetstinger said:
Don't forget you'll need to re-do the denon setup, levels, distance, EQ, speaker crossovers, manual check levels.

Yep, all done. I re-ran auddysey earlier, then manually went in and made sure all speakers were set to small, crossover 80hz, subwoofer lfe only, set to 120hz. I think that's it

Dominic-Toretto · 16 Jul 2024 at 17:03

hornetstinger said:
There are also EQ modes, I think reference and flat or something one rolls the treble off the other leaves it alone.

I don't think that model has phone app room EQ support where you can tweak room EQ settings? That allows you to set the correction cut off point, typically you don't want full range room correction, so it allows you option to correct <300hz only for speakers and sub.

From my own REW testing, my speakers are pretty flat above 300hz.

I turned dynamic eq and volume off. I have never used the app, or rew to tweak any further settings. I wouldn't know where to start to be honest.

Dominic-Toretto · 17 Jul 2024 at 19:33

So, an unexpected turn of events, I ended up picking up a pair of Evo 4.2 Bookshelf speakers with the matching wharfedale stands locally for £490. They were both less than a year old and I couldn't pass up the opportunity to have a matching set of surrounds. I know the 4.2's are overkill as surround speakers, but wow do they look beautiful, it's nice to have the tonal match with the fronts too! So another set of Diamond 9's out, and another set of Evo 4's in. I haven't recalibrated, at this point I still want to pick up something like a SVS PB-1000 Pro, and I am also eyeing up a set of Evo 4S rear surround tripole speakers. I don't have much space behind my seating for the existing rears, maybe 1m max, these look like they would mount on the wall and give me more space, and better sound, although I have never had tripole so I am not sure how they would sound. They are very expensive though, £1k new for two tiny surrounds. Hmmmm, hopefully something comes up used.

Anyhow enough talking, here are some pictures...

Dominic-Toretto · 17 Jul 2024 at 19:34

Also, does anyone know anything about sleeving cables? I need to sleeve my speaker cables black, the gold colour really stands out against the carpet! It needs to be black. I will read some guides...

Dominic-Toretto · 17 Jul 2024 at 19:42

hornetstinger said:
Are you sure they're tripole? Not dipole or bipole?

Whether what's best for those speakers if you get atmos supposedly diffused speakers aren't ideal

Here is a picture: That is tripole right?
I wasn't planning on Atmos, due to ceiling heights in the room it just really isn't feasible to put anything worth while up there.

Dominic-Toretto · 19 Jul 2024 at 09:33

Dominic-Toretto said:
Does anyone know why the rubber around the cones is discoloured like this on both Evo 4.4s? The Evo 4C does not have this, nor do any of my Diamond 9.1s Is it normal?
Is it safe to wipe off / touch? Don't want to damage the speaker or anything

So an update on this, the marks would not come off. I reached out via the retailer to wharfedale who confirmed the finish is defective. They offered me 4 new woofers to replace my self. Or a collect and deliver replacement. I went for the brand new replacement as I don't want to be messing around with brand new speakers and just want a factory mint condition pair. So these will now be going back Monday and a new set delivered Wednesday. Not looking forward to carrying these 30kg speakers up 3 flights of stairs LOL

Dominic-Toretto · 21 Jul 2024 at 20:33

hornetstinger said:
Saw your post on avforums. FYI BK subs are good but for HT they are surpassed by other sub brands. That does look like a large room so use this to get an idea what you will need. I had a SW-150 it's ok for a bedroom system, but in a large space you'll be missing a lot of low frequencies and limited in output.

How much subwoofer output capability do you need in your system?

Dear AVF members The table below lists CEA-2010 output rated subwoofers in order of their estimated ability to support user listening levels (relative to reference) in rooms of varying sizes. For some it may be self-explanatory but if you would like to know how to use the table and how and why...

www.avforums.com

I'd say amp upgrade is next thing, and if you are into 2 channel stereo, you could look at a decent stereo integrated amplifier. THis will offer superior sound quality to a AVR (for stereo mode) Diamond 9.1 will be fine for surrounds, or you could move 9.1 to atmos buying evo standmount for rears, again depends on how many channels you're going for

Based on this a SVS PB1000 Pro will be enough to run reference levels in my room with no sweat. I have spoken to SVS who have confirmed this, and have advised I can go dual in the future. SVS is on the way as we speak! Let's see if I notice the difference lol

Dominic-Toretto · 21 Jul 2024 at 21:19

hornetstinger said:
What is the W X H X D of the total room?

When you get the sub install the app, disable the subwoofers own crossover.

The total is 53m3

Yep will do!

Dominic-Toretto · 21 Jul 2024 at 21:20

hornetstinger said:
What do you think the difference with the bigger 3 way center? That should have been a massive upgrade over the 2 way MTM

I have only used them for an hour, they sound a lot better, audio is a lot fuller. I have had to exchange the 4.4s, and also added the 4.2s since. I will recalibrate when the sub arrives and hoping to notice a huge difference accross the system!