Will this end the format war?

[YooEntSinMeROYT]

Actually Betamax wasnt a failure - ask any journalist or broadcaster at the time and it was a huge success (admittedly not in the scale Sony would have liked) but seeing as nearly every broadcaster actually used professional betamax equipment for a decade or more , I wouldnt really call that a "failure"

I don't deny that Betamax was a superior format. Yet it wasn't adopted en-mass by the pron industry or consumers globally. So not exactly a success. Which was partly due to Betamax being wholly owned by SONY. Whereas VHS although developed by JVC was more open & had competing licences & manufacturers, forcing prices down due to the healthy competition.

Minidisc and ATRAC are really one in the same (as ATRAC was developed for minidisc you cant really split them imho

Well SONY have split them! As they insisted in persisting with ATRAC after the demise of Minidisc, for the encoding for music files on all their portable music players instead of going with MP3. Only now have they decided to adopt the MP3 codec, so are really entering the game very late on (some are saying too late) in what is now a very competive market.

At this moment in time you are knocking SACD which was an advanced version of a system out for ten years+ yet argueing for exactly the same thing on the DVD front? IF HD-DVD is such a good thing at this point (its still propreitary until its a "success" ) then you cant blame Sony for trying to extend SACD the way they did - they are an identical development extension!!!

I'm not knocking SACD as a format, only saying that it has been a failure in regards to adoption by global consumers. I own a fair few SACDs & believe it to offer a worthwhile leap in audio quality over CDs. I'm a fan of the increase in frequency range & the use of multi audio channels. However I preferred the DVD-A format, of which I own a fair few discs also, for higher bit-rate multi channel audio. I thought it was much more flexible than SACD in that it offered extras such as on screen track menus, lyrics & video clips, photo galleries etc.
I would like to have seen DVD-A take off but SONY's insistance in pushing an older technology in SACD (much the same as it's insistance in pushing ATRAC after the failure of Minidisc) caused a format war. Leading to consumer confusion & putting off music labels from committing to one format or the other. So it remains a niche market. I fear the same will be happen with Blu-Ray & HD-DVD.

I fully admit UMD died a painful death from being too expensive (for movies at least) and probably not having enough storage space just at the time usb sticks etc were growing past that 1.7Gb capacity. I still think that the PSP is a great format and for what you are getting its a fabulous system, but its a pity that UMD was bundled with it - thinking about it though what removable memory storage could have been used - anythign to fit in the PSP would have to have been proprietary from the sheer size anyway (even mini cd - which in effect UMD was). I would have loved to have seen a umd recorder though on the market

It would have been fine if they had stuck with UMD just for games. As like you say, they would have to have used a proprietary format due to the size of the PSP (& to combat game piracy). However 4gb CF cards had just been released at the time of the PSP, & now upwards of 8gb cards are available, Easily enough to fit a DVD quality film or to onto. Or they could have made it just slightly bulkier & fitted a hard drive similar to the iPod (although I think that Apple had bought up virtually all of Toshibas output of mini hard drives). That would have made it an ideal storage platform for downloading photos from a digital camera when on holiday. What they should have invested in for the PSP was an online shop offering video downloads in MP4 format, downloadable to your PC & in turn to a decent sized memory card or hard drive(a la iTunes & the iPod Video). They really could have given Apple a run for it's money. I have a PSP but I never watch any UMD movies on it & rarely play games on it. I do however use it all the time on my lengthy commute to watch MP4 video files stored on "Magic Gate" 2gb memory stick. Which brings me onto the memory stick.

I would also say that memorystick isnt a failure either as its got various applications from camera's (still and video) and mp3 players on the market with readers being built into tv's and video systems and digital picture frames with current 2006 / 2007 products and in use by other companies not just Sony , why is this a failure?

SONY's memory stick is still mainly found in SONY products. It has not been widely adopted by other companies. I would only really have considered it a success if it had been adopted by other big players of the likes of Canon & Nikon. I would have liked nothing better than to have a memory card format interchangeable between my Digital SLR/PSP/PC etc.
An example of the negative aspect of this proprietary-"ness" is as follows:
My mother recently made an impulse purchase of a SONY compact camera. Only to be dismayed that her Hewlett Packard all in one printer/copier with built in card reader, supported every type of memory card, except for the "Magic Gate".

I dont agree they are forcing it on gamers - you dont HAVE to buy a ps3 at all. My choice is that I will and Im happy that blu-ray is included , I dont want a games console that has added boxes here and there to get full functionality - I want one price tag and get the whole lot in one , no "hidden" charges to get wireless, or hi-def movies or wireless controllers and you get a decent hdd size aswell

Fine you don't agree that they are forcing Blu Ray on gamers. I think they are. Nobody HAS to by a PS3 true, but fans of the PS2 are going to want to upgrade to a PS3. A sizeable proportion of PS2 gamers are kids. They will only be interested in playing the latest & greatest games & won't give a hoot about being able to play hi-def films. However including Blu Ray in the PS3 has bumped up the price of the console considerably. The PS2 was a family console because it was reasonably priced (the original PS even more so). However the steep price of the PS3 due to the inclusion of Blu-Ray is going to push it beyond the reach of quite a few families. Especially those families with several kids all wanting their own PS3 in their own bedrooms. It will just make the price of the Wii even more attractive as a family console. Even more so with the physical interactivity.
They should have offered Blu-Ray as an add-on box & kept the price of the console down. As Microsoft have done with their HD-DVD drive. Reading the various forums demand of the HD-DVD add-on has been far out-stripping supply. Which can only be beneficial for HD-DVD gaining a good markethold. I think SONY are worried about their chances of success with Blu-Ray up against HD-DVD. So they have shoe-horned it into the PS3 in order to try & get it installed in as many households as posssible to try & increase their chances of gaining the market share in the Blu-Ray HD-DVD. Fair-play to them, but it is a risky move. As they may well be isolating themselves from a large share of their previous console consumer base.

Hold on - yes the laptop batteries where a debacle but are you now expecting Sony to look into the future and into another part of the massive corporation (as Playstation part is a completely different entity to the Laptop manufacturer) but PS3 had already been released by the time this happened so been in development 4 years or so!!!!

Sorry, my comment on the battery issue was a bit vague. I'm saying that the battery debacle really cost SONY. If Blu-Ray fails then it will really cost SONY dear due to the amount of money invested in research.
SONY seem to be late adopters in many technology areas. MP3 players & LCD panels are just 2 examples, although the quality of their Bravia panels cannot be faulted. Now with the delay of the PS3 in Europe, Toshiba (who co-developed the Cell processor with SONY along with IBM) are now mooting that they will have this Cell technology released in Europe before SONY.

With the recent economic climate of huge corporate/global companies, Enron/Worldcom/Global Crossing etc filing for Chapter 11 Bankruptsy protection (admittedly all American companies). It only takes a few major marketing failures to put a company, no matter how large, in trouble.

I do think however that the PS3 will be their best chance of making or breaking the market with Blu-Ray (if they have not priced themselves out of the market).

BTW Sony have been reknowned for a lot more than just their displays for longer than I care to remember, from cameras, laptops, hifi equipment , dvd players and packages to name just a few - their whole culture is about invention and miniturisation (the Walkman, withouth which we may never have had the mp3 player)

That's fair comment. I myself don't rate their cameras, laptops, hi fi equipment or DVD players. I do rate their consoles & the Walkman was one of the all time classic inventions.

Everyone remembers the failures and doesnt give credit for the successes.

Of course everone remembers the failures...it's human nature.
But I do acknowledge that SONY have had successes. The games console market being their biggest. They would not be the size they are today if they hadn't. It just seems that they are relying too heavily on their previous console success in order to try & bolster success of Blu-Ray.

 

[FrankJH]

Im not knocking DVD-A but why would you want visual content on a primarily audio disc - seems to make complete nonsense to me, you either want to watch a DVD of a concert or gig or whatever or just listen to the audio ie CD / SACD?


You didnt think of getting your mum an adaptor for her card reader? You do realise that the memory-stick pro is reputed to have more read/write's before failure as a brand and be more robust as well as being smaller in size? 4Gb Cf's are still pretty expensive and I dread to think what price 8Gb ones are


So you prefer hidden charges it seems - cant really see any benfit in being sold a "hi- def" console that cant naturally play all types of hi-def content only to be flogged a half assed add on drive, along with ext hdd, add on wifi..... One box for the whole family, which can be tucked away if need be, rather than several boxes loads interconnecting wires / aerials and at the end of the day a tiny hdd (by last years standards let alone this year)

Yeah Sony were late with LCD because they had heavily invested in Plasma instead, which in many areas is meant to be a better technology than LCD.......

Of course its easier for Tosh to launch the Cell a lot quicker in Europe, they dont have the huge number of console followers to keep happy . They launch one tv or whatevre with a Cell and its relatively easy (which after all is only likely to last a year in its present guise before new 2008 products get released) a whole different problem to releasing something that has to last 4 or 5 years maybe more

I would also state that when the PS2 was at its peak it was aimed at 13/14 - early 20's who by now are all the people interested in ps3 , who have their own income now. The other thing to note is that the PS3 is all about hidef , Im not sure parents are going to be splashing out all that often on a Hidef display so pointless having a ps3 in the bedroom! Also worth thinking abuot that the PS3 is much more family oerentated so it WILL be more than likely attached to the big tv downstairs (more likely to be hidef and with the amp for hi quality sound)

Your opinion, thats great however numerous wide-ranging and independant awards say otherwise - quite a few simlpy "class of the field" over the years.
I cheer Sony for pushing the industry forward - we wouldnt be having this debate if there was only ever one choice

 

[YooEntSinMeROYT]

Im not knocking DVD-A but why would you want visual content on a primarily audio disc - seems to make complete nonsense to me, you either want to watch a DVD of a concert or gig or whatever or just listen to the audio ie CD / SACD?

Why wouldn't I want visual content, if the space is there on the disc. DVD Audio players are also DVD Video players & are often linked into Home Cinema amplifiers, so there is obviously a visual source in the equation. I think it's a nice bonus to have lyrics accessible for each song, a visible tracklist or artwork slideshows in progress while the music is playing. Plus the increase in bit-rate adds considerably to the sound quality in my opinion.

You didnt think of getting your mum an adaptor for her card reader? You do realise that the memory-stick pro is reputed to have more read/write's before failure as a brand and be more robust as well as being smaller in size? 4Gb Cf's are still pretty expensive and I dread to think what price 8Gb ones are

Of course I gave my Mum an adapter! It was just an example.

So you prefer hidden charges it seems - cant really see any benfit in being sold a "hi- def" console that cant naturally play all types of hi-def content only to be flogged a half a***d add on drive, along with ext hdd, add on wifi..... One box for the whole family, which can be tucked away if need be, rather than several boxes loads interconnecting wires / aerials and at the end of the day a tiny hdd (by last years standards let alone this year)

It's not hidden charges if you don't want the extra functionality.
I don't need the wi-fi connectivity on the Xbox 360 as an example. As I use the Ethernet port.
However I don't mind modular add-ons at all.
The HD-DVD drive add-on has enabled me to sample HD-DVD films for the price of £130 compared to £379 for a standalone player. So I don't consider it half a***d.
The TWO boxes of the Xbox 360 with HD-DVD add-on can be easily tucked away in a cabinet or cupboard. As the wireless controllers don't need line of sight.

I'm not saying that the technology of the PS3 is not impressive & I admire what they are trying to do, but charging £425 for a games console is pushing it. I'm not saying won't buy into the PS3 when it's released over here. As I've bought more or less every console in the past. If the multi-functionality that they are aiming for works well then I may be convinced, but still think they are trying to cram too much into one box, at too high a price for the general consumer. It could end up a "Jack of all trades & master of none". The price is certainly putting me off, despite having a fair amount of disposable income.

Of course its easier for Tosh to launch the Cell a lot quicker in Europe, they dont have the huge number of console followers to keep happy . They launch one tv or whatevre with a Cell and its relatively easy (which after all is only likely to last a year in its present guise before new 2008 products get released) a whole different problem to releasing something that has to last 4 or 5 years maybe more

I agree. As SONY have been quoted as saying that the PS3 is all they have been focusing on with respect to the "Cell" technology. It seem though as if Toshiba are trying to hurt SONY on all fronts at the moment.

I would also state that when the PS2 was at its peak it was aimed at 13/14 - early 20's who by now are all the people interested in ps3 , who have their own income now. The other thing to note is that the PS3 is all about hidef , Im not sure parents are going to be splashing out all that often on a Hidef display so pointless having a ps3 in the bedroom! Also worth thinking abuot that the PS3 is much more family oerentated so it WILL be more than likely attached to the big tv downstairs (more likely to be hidef and with the amp for hi quality sound)

There are still many kids younger than 13/14 who are into PS2. I know my Godson will be wanting a PS3 & he's nowhere near having his own income & definitely is not interested in Blu-Ray.

Yep you make a valid case though about the hi-def displays in bedrooms. Although there will be still a fair few parents who will be put off at having to buy a hi-def display on top of the price of a PS3 in order for them & their kids to play it in all it's glory.

& yes rating or not rating particular brands is my opinion....& I'm expressing it.

Happy New Year

 

[Amp34]

You didnt think of getting your mum an adaptor for her card reader? You do realise that the memory-stick pro is reputed to have more read/write's before failure as a brand and be more robust as well as being smaller in size? 4Gb Cf's are still pretty expensive and I dread to think what price 8Gb ones are

I agree, CF and SD have been around for years compared to MS (and to an extend XD cards). Even though they are both getting bigger they are starting to show their age, buying them is like buying a 42" crt to replace your 28" tv instead of a plasma (or soon to be SED). Unfortunatly Canon and some of the big brands are still persisting with these older cards, mainly i assume for backwards compatability. Its a bit silly and needs to atop, the newer tech needs to be bumped up or there will be a masssive gulf in the near future.

I'm not saying that the technology of the PS3 is not impressive & I admire what they are trying to do, but charging £425 for a games console is pushing it. I'm not saying won't buy into the PS3 when it's released over here. As I've bought more or less every console in the past. If the multi-functionality that they are aiming for works well then I may be convinced, but still think they are trying to cram too much into one box, at too high a price for the general consumer. It could end up a "Jack of all trades & master of none". The price is certainly putting me off, despite having a fair amount of disposable income.

I can see your point to an extent but the price point is a bit silly, yes it is more expensive than the 360 but once the HD-DVD player and wireless are added on they tart to get very close price wise. I agree with FrankJH, the 360 has so many hidden charges its unreal. Comparing the PS3 to the PS2 as you seem to be doing, I remember buying a PS2 bundle for over £400 about 6 months after launch. There is very little in price between the just released PS2 and the PS3, the PS3 may even be cheaper with inflation accounted for.

 

[MetA]

With regard there being two formats.
From what I remember of reading about the development of BlueRay, was that it was very nearly agreed with all groups, then Toshiba and co decided not to play ball and developed HD-DVD. So why blame Sony, when it was clearly and obviously Tosh who created the mess we're now all in?.

Not as clear-cut as all that.....

The DVD forum of manufacturers was well established and were on a path to produce an evolution of DVD to support HD.
THe Blue-Ray group formed OUTSIDE of this forum and procuded a differente solution and through clever Sony marketing/hype got the first "recorder" to market ahead of the HD-DVD format even bein finalised.
BUT as we've seen, delivering Blu-Ray to the mass market didn't follow.
Sony (imho) tried to usurp the market by producing a one-off in the hope that everyone else would lie down quietly.
Far too much ego present in the choices and not enough customer-care and common sense

 

[SideWinder]

I personally think HD-DVD is going to win.

Try explaining what a Blu-ray is to average joe public.. they'd have a seizure! At least they know what you're talking about, seeing as HD and DVD are both acronyms that are overly-milked nowadays

Blu ray should be kept purely as a storage format.

Hear hear.

 

[FrankJH]

Laughs - so just because its a "known acronym" means its going to be the best to go for?

It has been proven after the last 10 years that we need as much storage for media as possible - its pointless having a recorder for "storage" and a player for playback only

The reason why Sony hasnt released the recorder over here is that there isnt any broadcast that makes it viable yet

Yoo - the whole point is that CD is an AUDIO only format, as was intended by SACD, like for a car or just hifi system, the majority of people would use it as such. As I stated if you want to buy a musical for viewing or a live concert or something then yeah I can see the benfit to having a visual display otherwise its pretty redundant - most people are paying for what they will never use

So even though Sony made sure there were adaptors feasable to be read by (from their point of view) non standard card readers, you still think its their fault?

The amount of people who will have a wireless broadband router somewhere in their home is going to be a lot more common than those who want to trail a physical wire across the living room - just an educated guess but reasonable wouldnt you say? PS you also have to pay extra for the wireless controllers of the X360

Most people want some kind of storage, yet with MS you pay extra (for a much smaller hdd), X360 is being marketed as Hi Def - but they dont admit openly that its just gaming for which its naturally hi -def

THree boxes as the comparisson includes the hdd - to make it as equal as possible to the ps3 (and potentially four for wifi with some kind of aerial mount)

Thats the difference, out of the box the X360 is ONLY a games console, thats not actually true of the PS3, it will appeal naturally to a lot more customers because of this. Its a multi-media hub and has been designed as such.

I am sure Sony are more than aware of what Toshiba were likely to do, of course after committing R&D personnell and budget to anything any company is likely to want the product into market ASAP, to make all the costs back. If anything it will help Sony, could be added functionality between devices which both use cell's?

I was saying the PRIMARY market for PS2 has grown up - of course it still has the younger teens still interested but there is a lot more of its potential customers / previous customers of PS2 that DO have their own income. My point was the parents DONT have to buy an extra display - the majority bought one for the World cup already, another isnt necessary

 

[crashuk]

it will make it cheaper for us

 

[Simian]

SONY's memory stick is still mainly found in SONY products. It has not been widely adopted by other companies. I would only really have considered it a success if it had been adopted by other big players of the likes of Canon & Nikon. I would have liked nothing better than to have a memory card format interchangeable between my Digital SLR/PSP/PC etc.
An example of the negative aspect of this proprietary-"ness" is as follows:
My mother recently made an impulse purchase of a SONY compact camera. Only to be dismayed that her Hewlett Packard all in one printer/copier with built in card reader, supported every type of memory card, except for the "Magic Gate".

I'm sorry!... but EVERY Multi (XXin1) Card Reader (be it built into a PC or Printer or standalone) that I've ever come across has always had a Sony MS slot!.. you need the Adapter (usually supplied) for the smaller versions, but as far as I'm aware they've always been there!..

 

[englishpremier]

Can't see blu ray dying at all, it could surrive just by sony Pitcures, colombia, colombia tristar, Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer (all Sony owned) realesing movies only in Blu-ray.