Work and career progression apathy.. Is it much more prevalent now?

[413x]

Thought about this thread for a while. And the OF thread encouraged me to create it.

It may well just be me, or an anecdotal thing. Where I'm friends with these people because they are like me. But in my peer group not many people are pushing for the next step.

I should add that most of my peer group earn good (above average) salaries but under 100. But no one seems to want the next level (me inc). More than one has even stepped back from middle manager roles.

I'm not sure if it's because many of us don't have kids (late 30s mainly) and that need to leave an inheritance isn't there. But I shush see it with my sisters who do have a kid each.
Or it's just that the next step (managing for many of us) isn't worth the hassle. I've never wanted any of my managers jobs. And that the tax burden is such that paying it into pension is only sensible thing. But that doesn't seem Rewarding.

From what I've seen next step includes (often) overtime (paid or not) and stress (from above and below that middle position) and being already in the 40pc bracket, even 10k pay rise is only a few hundred a month. Ie, it's not going to change your life.


I'd say it isn't anecdotal as a 4 day week is being talked about more and more. I know far more people that would take a 4 day week vs a pay rise. Even a 4 day week with a pay cut

With state pension age always on the up, and most peoples pensions not able to allow you to retire before this.. Its there really any reward in the 50-125k band (where many end up) in this case.. Assuming the hassle and work life balance starts to swing to work?


For myself I am definitely in the "I'm done now, I certainly don't want more stress for more money. I want time.

We have a lot of high flyers here on the forum, and obviously those in the mega salary (ie over 150k) that's different. If you have got there, yes. I totally see the benefits.

But in that 50-125k..for those that are there... Who do have the stress.. Its it worth it?

 

[OpenToSuggestions]

I'm mid 30s and have gone down to 4.5 work days paid over 4 days. I did this post an autism diagnosis.
I put 15% of my own money into my pension to keep out the 40% bracket.
You are totally correct that it is diminishing returns taking on more responsibility for a few hundred per month once the government grabs their bit.

I have no ability to go into management. Not because I am technically inept, but because of all the woke nonsense they are expected to enforce on the team.
I am not able to 'ask a non biased question' when someone I deem to be lazy has fallen asleep in a meeting yet again.

 

[Ayahuasca]

It depends on the industry and your employer. My employer is pushing hard for a 4-day week without a pay cut.

Management isn't for everyone and most people who get into it aren't very good at it. You really need to understand people and have excellent communication skills as a starting point.

 

[Mason-]

What I would point out to you is that you don’t necessarily have to be in senior management to be on 6 figures now. I’m in engineering, semiconductors, and plenty of individual contributors are on well into 6 figures.

There’s nothing wrong with not wanting to go into management. Lots of people just want to be ICs all their career and that’s fine, but you do tend to hit a wall with reward. For me I’m at the cusp of whether I stay as an IC or push on into management. And I’m leaning toward management, mainly because I get frustrated with some of our processes and want to change them. And because I like the company I work for and I like the people I work with, and sadly, I care a lot about it. I’m not motivated to go into it for money.

So I think the decision of whether you go into management I think a lot of it depends on the company you work for and the people you work with.

 

[413x]

What I would point out to you is that you don’t necessarily have to be in senior management to be on 6 figures now. I’m in engineering, semiconductors, and plenty of individual contributors are on well into 6 figures.

There’s nothing wrong with not wanting to go into management. Lots of people just want to be ICs all their career and that’s fine, but you do tend to hit a wall with reward. For me I’m at the cusp of whether I stay as an IC or push on into management. And I’m leaning toward management, mainly because I get frustrated with some of our processes and want to change them. And because I like the company I work for and I like the people I work with, and sadly, I care a lot about it. I’m not motivated to go into it for money.

So I think the decision of whether you go into management I think a lot of it depends on the company you work for and the people you work with.

Yeah for sure.
I have a friend on this path as he's super smart with maths/IT. So he Doesn't have to manage to get onto that. But I feel this is specialised skilled roles.

But for many of us wouldn't get to the next run without a lot of effort. Ie learning a new skill outside of work, taking on management, or going contracting (in my case). And many question..is it worth it for 10k pay rise? Often not.

 

[Ayahuasca]

But for many of us wouldn't get to the next run without a lot of effort. Ie learning a new skill outside of work, taking on management, or going contracting (in my case). And many question..is it worth it for 10k pay rise? Often not.

It's not just about the money though, if you're not progressing you're often left behind if you're not in a skilled role and you'll find yourself at 55 being managed by a 25 year old.

It's been discussed here before, but it's a different level of responsibility as you move up the ranks and the stressors shift, so it depends on your personality and what gets you upset and what doesn't.

 

[[FnG]magnolia]

Just LOL if your job is not a safety mechanism to keep you from constant day drinking, binging Ellen on repeat (the glory years not the bad ones, we have standards thank you), and plotting a novel which you'll never finish about how your job is the only thing stopping you from constant day drinking, binging Ellen on repeat (the glory years not the bad ones, standards), and plotting a novel which you'll never finish.

e: noobs.

 

[Narj]

"I'm done now, I certainly don't want more stress for more money. I want time."

Mid 40's, currently nearly 20 years into a high stress senior IT job and this sums me up perfectly. I've worked to get to the point where I can quit tomorrow and not work for ~7 years if I live reasonably frugally, however that doesn't take me up to when I can start drawing down on my SIPP/Work Pensions (assuming 58) so I need to push harder for a while yet.

I'm tempted to quit next year if I can't get a payoff, and just get a Telehandler and/or Forklift ticket or something and go do that for the lolz. I think that would get me through with minimal stress.

 

[Freefaller]

I'm actually looking at lower salaried jobs at the moment and even taking a step back from director level roles. However at the same time I think maybe push hard for a couple more years and then pull back a little and look for some NED work instead to supplement my salary.

6 figures doesn't mean much really. Mainly because most of it should go into your pension to take advantage of the tax relief, but also having a bit extra doesn't miraculously solve your problems.

There's more to life than earning a lot - I'm not hugely happier now than when I was on 35k paying £1k of rent. Well actually I am happier as I have 2 kids which has been the most amazing thing in my life, but other than that I still was able to go on holiday etc when I had less. But life has also become more expensive as well imo.

If I could work for a company that was genuinely just good fun and not stressful and still got paid lots that would be the dream! I'm getting too old to deal with egos and office politics and having to watch what I say all the time.

 

[[FnG]magnolia]

What I would point out to you is that you don’t necessarily have to be in senior management to be on 6 figures now. I’m in engineering, semiconductors, and plenty of individual contributors are on well into 6 figures.

There’s nothing wrong with not wanting to go into management. Lots of people just want to be ICs all their career and that’s fine, but you do tend to hit a wall with reward. For me I’m at the cusp of whether I stay as an IC or push on into management. And I’m leaning toward management, mainly because I get frustrated with some of our processes and want to change them. And because I like the company I work for and I like the people I work with, and sadly, I care a lot about it. I’m not motivated to go into it for money.

So I think the decision of whether you go into management I think a lot of it depends on the company you work for and the people you work with.

The decision of whether you should go into management boils down to your motivation and capability to do so. If you're only interested in the 'six figures' convo then you'd better at least have one or preferably both of the others locked down.

There are probably quite a few senior and perhaps very senior folks in GD. I always find these threads fascinating.

 

[krooton]

I like to do, not delegate, so management is a hard pass for me, even if it does cap my earning potential, I don't really care.

We are DINKs though, so that helps.

 

[Ayahuasca]

I'm getting too old to deal with egos and office politics and having to watch what I say all the time.

Just out of interest, what kind of things have you been pulled on or had to bite your tongue on?

 

[413x]

I like to do, not delegate, so management is a hard pass for me, even if it does cap my earning potential, I don't really care.

We are DINKs though, so that helps.

Same for both of us too.
Neither of us are 'manager' types.
But that DINK makes it a lot easier to not need more cash.

 

[Freefaller]

Just out of interest, what kind of things have you been pulled on or had to bite your tongue on?

Personally other than a little "just be careful" comments, I have not had a disciplinary at all. Just silly innuendos or puns that are too good to miss, and add some levity, being your true self... there's just some things that I would never say in the office. So as you say I just bite my tongue and just focus on the job - which ultimately is what I'm paid for, but I also want to be in an environment that is fun and enjoyable and not stale. THAT SAID, there are enough of us in our mid 40s / early 50s who do chat freely without treading on eggshells all the time - however some people have complained (well not really complained, but moaned?) about our boisterousness. Can't please everyone I guess.

I believe that most people have positive intent in their comments and don't purposely go out of their way to hurt or offend people. Sometimes you say things that come across bluntly or slightly unfriendly but are completely benign but people interpret it wrong. I have always been of the opinion that taking offence is optional and often people choose to make a fuss when there's no reason to. Also some people don't like being told no, or that their idea is not suitable, or because someone is the flavour of the month, all their work is prioritised and they are deemed important etc.. I've always spoken truth to power, I don't care if you're the cleaner or the CEO, I'll pull you up on something I disagree with. I do it agreeably and not in a confrontational manner, but I'm definitely NOT a "yes man". I can play the game, and have done, but frankly I can't abide it.

I'm just much more muted in my behaviours at work, which is absolutely correct as you deal with a whole bunch of different people with different backgrounds and behaviours - I don't mind that at all. What I do mind, is that if you do let something slip that it's just seen as what it is, a bit of a silly comment with absolutely no offence meant and no underlying hatred etc... However that's far too pragmatic and sensible!

Interestingly, if people swear people don't seem to bat an eyelid, which I find quite interesting (other than the c word of course).

I don't really know where I'm going with this, I guess I make friends quite quickly, and drop my guard quite openly, I've never been one to have much of a filter (I call myself a walking HR nightmare - despite never having any issues), but I'm also not one to upset or offend people intentionally. I guess what I'm driving at is that you're given a box drawn on piece of paper and some pens, and told in absolute terms not to go over the lines, and to only use 3 colours, but I want to use more than 3 colours and don't want to draw just within the box.

 

[mid_gen]

Thought about this thread for a while. And the OF thread encouraged me to create it.

It may well just be me, or an anecdotal thing. Where I'm friends with these people because they are like me. But in my peer group not many people are pushing for the next step.

I should add that most of my peer group earn good (above average) salaries but under 100. But no one seems to want the next level (me inc). More than one has even stepped back from middle manager roles.

I'm not sure if it's because many of us don't have kids (late 30s mainly) and that need to leave an inheritance isn't there. But I shush see it with my sisters who do have a kid each.
Or it's just that the next step (managing for many of us) isn't worth the hassle. I've never wanted any of my managers jobs. And that the tax burden is such that paying it into pension is only sensible thing. But that doesn't seem Rewarding.

From what I've seen next step includes (often) overtime (paid or not) and stress (from above and below that middle position) and being already in the 40pc bracket, even 10k pay rise is only a few hundred a month. Ie, it's not going to change your life.


I'd say it isn't anecdotal as a 4 day week is being talked about more and more. I know far more people that would take a 4 day week vs a pay rise. Even a 4 day week with a pay cut

With state pension age always on the up, and most peoples pensions not able to allow you to retire before this.. Its there really any reward in the 50-125k band (where many end up) in this case.. Assuming the hassle and work life balance starts to swing to work?


For myself I am definitely in the "I'm done now, I certainly don't want more stress for more money. I want time.

We have a lot of high flyers here on the forum, and obviously those in the mega salary (ie over 150k) that's different. If you have got there, yes. I totally see the benefits.

But in that 50-125k..for those that are there... Who do have the stress.. Its it worth it?

I've been and done most of it tbh

I stayed on an upward trajectory from when I started work in my 20s until I was around that 150k area, working in finance, living abroad, working some crazy hours and stress and BS toxic workplaces. Sacked that all off for a career change into games. Dropped down to about 30k initially, and crept back up to over double that after a decade+. I've been in management roles most of my professional life.

Tbh not having kids or a predeliction for money-pits like cars I haven't found the money side of things very different over the years. I've always had 'enough'.

I did drop back to a principal engineer role a few years ago, a 'a just do the coding' job. It bored the living daylights out of me, maybe some people like just ticking over, but it's not for me.

I've found since packing in alcohol entirely that I've got plenty of time and energy to hold down a difficult and challenging job while still having a very active and fulfilling life outside work. Ditching the booze has been the key to making it all work.

 

[413x]

I've been and done most of it tbh

I stayed on an upward trajectory from when I started work in my 20s until I was around that 150k area, working in finance, living abroad, working some crazy hours and stress and BS toxic workplaces. Sacked that all off for a career change into games. Dropped down to about 30k initially, and crept back up to over double that after a decade+. I've been in management roles most of my professional life.

Tbh not having kids or a predeliction for money-pits like cars I haven't found the money side of things very different over the years. I've always had 'enough'.

I did drop back to a principal engineer role a few years ago, a 'a just do the coding' job. It bored the living daylights out of me, maybe some people like just ticking over, but it's not for me.

I've found since packing in alcohol entirely that I've got plenty of time and energy to hold down a difficult and challenging job while still having a very active and fulfilling life outside work. Ditching the booze has been the key to making it all work.

Alas. I've never found a job I've loved.
I'm in a position where I don't even know how I'd get into one. Especially when, tbh, I don't like work.

I really envy my friend who's on for 150k job when he finished his course, I just do not have the love for learning he does. But I wish I did.

Unfortunately I love doing outdoorsy stuff that would never pay a decent wage.
Its a real bind and I can't figure it out!

If I won a million I'd give up work tomorrow.

 

[sidimmu]

Think it depends on your upbringing a bit too.
I hate getting personal about my own life on this forum but here we go.

I grew up in a house hold that was dominated by arguments about money, as a result my earliest memories revolve around money.
It cost me friendships and more over time, the money anxiety this is.
I eventually had to get some help for the management of it because I was a horrible person to be around, this is when I was earning under 30k living in south essex, paying out over £350 a month in train fares alone.

As a result of the above, it is why I had enough of being an employee one day, went off and started my own business and I'll have 2 businesses soon.
Due to the upbringing, I may of had a couple years of peace time when I went through therapy, but that ended quite quickly once I saw the rising costs and seeing I could barely afford to eat, let alone go on holiday or afford a mortgage. I am someone who needs to earn as I want to have a quality life.

Taking it back to your initial question, before I left to do my own business, I was on just shy of 60k and I can promise you, It was not worth the level of stress they gave me.

 

[Narj]

Alas. I've never found a job I've loved.
I'm in a position where I don't even know how I'd get into one. Especially when, tbh, I don't like work.

I really envy my friend who's on for 150k job when he finished his course, I just do not have the love for learning he does. But I wish I did.

Unfortunately I love doing outdoorsy stuff that would never pay a decent wage.
Its a real bind and I can't figure it out!

If I won a million I'd give up work tomorrow.

I had 2 jobs I loved - both were early in my career and both 30-35K in the early 2000s. Pretty simple NOC work for separate Telcos doing transmission stuff.

Had an absolutely great time with both and had amazing managers and a great team environment. I actually looked forward to going to work back then and quite happily took extra shifts. Pub at lunchtime pretty much every day too - often by the river in summer.

Sadly the first one wouldn't bring my pay up - I think because of my age which gave me the hump in the end. The second one made redundancies after about 18 months which was a massive shame. I was gutted but at least it paid for me to go travelling.

Hitting 6 figures is nice until you realise that you can't have nice things and have to dump as much as possible into tax-efficient vehicles, as Freefaller said earlier.

 

[Josh]

I've just asked about the possibility of a 4-day week and do longer hours on my working days.

I'm very senior in my company and hold a comfortable amount of responsibility, but yeah sometimes I do think I'd rather go back to driving my lorry in a previous profession I had. I'm no longer chasing salary, I've seen peers leave £60-70k jobs for the London equivalent roles on £100k and become depressed in a short space of time, lack of WLB, the zombie commute and the pressure isn't something I ever want to do again.

 

[Haggisman]

I think it's a good thing actually, people are re-evaluating their work/life balance (possibly post-covid/WFH etc. related?) and realising that maximising earnings isn't necessarily a true measure of success and the only goal worth pursuing.

I've certainly developed that mindset over the last few years; I enjoy my job, it pays well enough that we don't have to scrimp and save, and the level of stress & frustration is... let's say "appropriate" for the compensation.

While obviously I wouldn't say no to an extra few ££££, I wouldn't be willing to sacrifice my current work/life balance for it.