Working for free

Well I've heard back after probing a little further.

So it turns out I will be the only Photographer, aside from a female one who will be backstage (as all the models are female & will be fairly nude). So while there won't be a pit of Photographers at the end of the catwalk, I would assume that any people from magazines/blogs etc who are seated will probably still have cameras with them to publish snaps.

I've been told that when my images are submitted to the press, I'd be accredited with them.

On that basis, if I have my bank details etc and licensing details in the IPTC metadata, is it likely I'd get paid by the press standard NUJ rates based on usage when the picture editor makes the decision whether to use them?
 
Sounds like a joke tbh.

You don't get paid, snap away, then they take the shots and give them to the press with nothing for it.
 
I would be careful if you sign any documents. In theory that might make a contract whereby you give all image rights to the organizer who can then sell photos to the press, or simply let the press use the photos for free.

If you avoid that then any half reasonable editorial will contact you for permission to use the photos and/or costs. And if thy don't and they print then you can charge after the fact!
 
i wouldnt. my day job is working for a clothing label and theyll have a pretty reasonable budget for this event. and as someone said above id put money on the rest of the staff/models etc being paid.
 
Absolutely no way.

The photography profession has been ruined by the huge influx of DSLRs in the hands of amateurs (no disrespect intended) who believe that the camera makes the scene, not the photographer's keen eye.

The only way for a photographer to *realistically* make money is by doing events like the one in the OP. If it becomes an assumed power/control thing to allow a photographer to capture your event for free, just because you're so benevolent, then this profession has just died.
 
An Exception said:
This

It's not fun being exploited, and it's not like this is even a means to an end.
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I also agree with this. I was asked last year to do a shoot for my local uni for a society which included full lighting setup and around 300 fully processed images for free. When I inquired further it turned out that the society wanted to sell the photos back to the members to pay for the actual event. I'd get nothing from it either so obviously told them were to stick it. A friend of mine was dumb enough to do it and spent 5 hours taking mediocre shots then many more hours processing them to then have them not even mention his name.

Just don't do it.
 
D.P. said:
If you would enjoy doing it and find it a good experience then there is no reason not to really. Yeah, they are exploiting you somewhat but if you say no so e other budding tog or student will do it for free.

Since I assume you don't have a professional website up with charges etc. then when they approached you it was with the intention of getting a photographer for free.

Getting experience at such events is always going to be difficult so doing this for free May seem a good idea but only if this is something you wish to do professionally in the future.
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This ^^

If you're a professional photographer and you make a living from it then i would say don't do it. If you're anything else and are happy to spare the time i'd say go for it.

It's only going to cost you time ultimately, you'll get your expenses back (travel, food, accommodation etc. i imagine), you'll gain experience, it might open doors, make useful contacts and if your work is good it'll look great on your CV. If it goes well, they are happy with your work and they want you back for another shoot say yes but this time standard rates apply. They either pay you or never use you again and get the next free person but you've gained more than you lost.

All this "wish noobs with dslrs would stop doing working for free" is laughable to me :rolleyes:.
 
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Sh4rkie said:
All this "wish noobs with dslrs would stop doing working for free" is laughable to me :rolleyes:.
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I'm aware that this is a pretty fiercely debated topic.

I have read the opinions of some Pros who aren't particularly worried about it an don't see it as stealing their business. Where as obviously some take the view its devaluing the entire trade.

As I believe has been pointed out a couple of times in this thread though, if I don't do it, they will simply offer it to somebody else unpaid. The fact is, they don't intend to pay anyone for this.

I'm actually still undecided as to whether I'm going to go with it yet though, but need to make a decision soon.
 
You know what guys, I think I might go for it.

Their brief/contract is pretty basic and specifies that the photos are to be used on their website and social media.

Thus I can shoot it, then create a licence document and embed it in the metadata that they are licensed for those purposes. Thus if they do submit it to any major newspapers or magazines, I would think any picture editor worth their salt should then pay me at the standard rates if they run with them.

So while its working unpaid, it does seem like it might be fun, good for my portfolio and there is still a chance I might make some money from it.
 
They can easily strip your exit details from the file and just wave a copy of that signed contract when you inevitably complain about copyrighted usage. Signing that contract is as good as signing your rights over those images away as they could pretty much justify using them for anything with those usage terms.
 
Nope, quite simply. Did quite a lot of work like this when I was first branching into offering photography as a service hoping that something would come of it, for good exposure etc etc.

Ultimately, it very rarely does, why should they benefit when you won't?

I wouldn't bother, really.

Jake
 
Phate said:
Nope, quite simply. Did quite a lot of work like this when I was first branching into offering photography as a service hoping that something would come of it, for good exposure etc etc.

Ultimately, it very rarely does, why should they benefit when you won't?

I wouldn't bother, really.

Jake
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Did you not pick up experience and images for your portfolio though which ultimately were of use to you when touting your professional services?
 
Blimey Phate's alive :eek:

To be honest for something like this I might do it for the experience, but only if I could afford to spend the time doing it. If you have to process the photos have they said how they want them or are you to surrender the RAW files? If you're taking hundreds of photos and they want you to process them then you've got to calculate how much that time is worth to you. Would you be doing other, paid work while you're doing that instead?

As I mentioned, if you just want the experience, go for it, but only if you're not costing yourself money from something paid you could be doing.
 
Nexus said:
Did you not pick up experience and images for your portfolio though which ultimately were of use to you when touting your professional services?
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Yes I gained experience, but not necessarily in the field that I wanted to head into, and when it boils down to it...when it isn't ultimately what you want to end up doing, it becomes a headache, you get a bit fed-up, a chore to work through the photos.

I had one particular experience (I even posted about it on here) about a girl I did a free shoot for on the basis that I would provide her with the photos as and when I had the time to finish them with no set date.

2 weeks later on a Sunday night I get a call saying she needed them by 9am the following day as she had a handful of shoots that week and needed to print her portfolio, which according to her was what I was providing.

I promptly told her to get stuffed (in a more polite way obviously), no way in hell was I going to work to the early hours, and then drop them off to her before I go to work, not for free, funnily enough she never contacted me again, until I saw her out and about over 2 years later and she said "oh we'll have to do another shoot soon!" with a big plastic smile, I smiled back and told her to wait for me call :)

I think that was the last straw for me really :)

And this is another thing, doing the job for this company, they will give you a deadline which you have to adhere to, so you have to re-arrange your life, your evenings, everything else...for nothing. Unless you want to specialise in catwalk photography, its pointless.

That's why I wouldn't do it.

The only times I've done free work and enjoyed it it has been shoots I have arranged purely for my own benefit, such as photos I wanted to create and required a dedicated make up artist, stylist, etc etc. They have been proper projects I've enjoyed and gotten the images I wanted out of it.

I've done 2 weddings for free, and doing a 3rd one for free in December, these have all been for extremely close friends who massively appreciate it.

Oops, I've gone on quite a bit :o
 
Nexus said:
You know what guys, I think I might go for it.

Their brief/contract is pretty basic and specifies that the photos are to be used on their website and social media.

Thus I can shoot it, then create a licence document and embed it in the metadata that they are licensed for those purposes. Thus if they do submit it to any major newspapers or magazines, I would think any picture editor worth their salt should then pay me at the standard rates if they run with them.

So while its working unpaid, it does seem like it might be fun, good for my portfolio and there is still a chance I might make some money from it.
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As said previously EXIF info can be stripped in a click of a button and the images being used on the website are obviously for promotion purposes.

If they were to engage a marketing company or web development business for marketing then it would cost money, I don't see how this is any different.

On the 'it maybe fun' side of thing well that's all well and good but I personally don't see any fun in being taken advantage of and unless you want to be a catwalk photographer there's is nothing to gain in experience terms.
I speak from a painful experience of doing something very similar, you will simply not make any money from doing this for free.

My work was used & still is being used for nothing because I agreed to do the job for free for a local music festival. It cost the organizers nothing, I've made nothing and I spent a good 30 - 40 hrs on the job in total.
When they I asked me to do it again this year I said yes but for a small fee this time (£150) and told them they could have all the shots and do with them what they wanted, I'll give you one guess how that went down.

They simply went and found the next chump with a DSLR and kit lens who agreed to do the job for nothing.
And right there lies the problem with the 'photographer for hire' industry.
 
You either don't have a portfolio and want to build on it then it is perfectly good to do it for nothing. It is much like TFCD with models.

If however, you are more established and know what you are doing and delivery good results and they know you can deliver good results consistently. Then you are doing it less for the portfolio and more about money, so there needs to be consideration, but it also comes with the responsibility of delivering what you promised. If however they turn around and don't want to hire you then they are not your client, move on. It is their risk to get photos from the next person who is willing to do it for free.

You want to be known as a good photographer, not as a cheap or free photographer.
 
James J said:
They can easily strip your exit details from the file and just wave a copy of that signed contract when you inevitably complain about copyrighted usage. Signing that contract is as good as signing your rights over those images away as they could pretty much justify using them for anything with those usage terms.
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Columbo said:
As said previously EXIF info can be stripped in a click of a button and the images being used on the website are obviously for promotion purposes.
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I've not actually signed any contract. Infact, its not really even a contract, I probably worded that wrong, its a brief which explains exactly what they want. It doesn't even look like I'm required to sign any contract.

Metadata can be stripped from Photoshop when doing an export for the web, but the default setting is to leave most of the data intact. Ultimately if they are doing a bunch of resizing for their website or blog, then that was the area I was always getting taken advantage of from anyway. With submissions to print though, I would imagine they will just send them the full resolution images untouched, so wouldn't be going anywhere near the metadata before a Picture Editor sees them. Further still, if I supply the images with web ready versions, I would imagine they probably won't need to do much tinkering anyway.

They want a DVD disc, so I'd supply with it my printed licence document which would reflect that the brief was to create images for their website blog and social media pages. Thus if they strip my metadata, they have ignored my copyright. If I send the disc recorded post, I also have proof they have it. It would have course mean having to check all the magazines myself to find whether my work has been used or not and then claim for payment, which isn't ideal.

Ultimately it would take a conceited effort to remove the IPTC Core, which is totally wrong if they have no contract with me.



On the 'it maybe fun' side of thing well that's all well and good but I personally don't see any fun in being taken advantage of and unless you want to be a catwalk photographer there's is nothing to gain in experience terms.
I speak from a painful experience of doing something very similar, you will simply not make any money from doing this for free.
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I'd actually say its more Events work, as while there is the catwalk part, there will be shots of the guests and the venue as well which is far more typical of that idiom.





Phate said:
I promptly told her to get stuffed (in a more polite way obviously), no way in hell was I going to work to the early hours, and then drop them off to her before I go to work, not for free, funnily enough she never contacted me again, until I saw her out and about over 2 years later and she said "oh we'll have to do another shoot soon!" with a big plastic smile, I smiled back and told her to wait for me call :)

I think that was the last straw for me really :)

And this is another thing, doing the job for this company, they will give you a deadline which you have to adhere to, so you have to re-arrange your life, your evenings, everything else...for nothing. Unless you want to specialise in catwalk photography, its pointless.
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The thing is though, if they aren't going to pay me, or make me sign a contract, its only their expectation, much like the story of your girl. I owe them nothing.
I've come to them off the back of a recommendation of a gig I did for somebody already involved in the company, so who has seen my work. Luckily for them I'm largely confident in what I'm doing and have professional gear. I could just as easily turn up with a Canon 1100D and a 18-55 kit lens and they would be non the wiser.

As above though, I'd say its got quite a bit of Events to it.
 
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