WWII Question?

Diesel · 21 Dec 2006 at 14:48

House said:
December 1940 Hitler made the same mistake that Nepolian made and attacked the russians in the winter. Then the japs bombed pearl harbour in Dec 41 and really messed up his plans.

I think you will find that Barbarossa began in June 1941. It were the subsequent winters that were to prove Germany's downfall in Russia.

lemonkettaz · 21 Dec 2006 at 14:48

eee and now we are second fiddle to America...

Bring back the Royal might... lets take the world!

scorza · 21 Dec 2006 at 14:49

wordy said:
It wasn't just "The Few" that thwarted Hitlers plans for invasion. It's been revised by historinans....and while the RAF did tremendous job of maintaining air superiorty over Britain, the Nazi's realised that any significant seaborne invasion would have been decimated by the Royal Navy. Which until the latter part of WWII was the largest and most capable Navy in the world.

How would the Royal Navy have got close enough to the English channel if the Germans had air supremacy over it?

TheMightyTen · 21 Dec 2006 at 14:52

Diesel said:
To be fair, between France falling in 1940 and Hitler launching Barbarossa in 1941, Great Britain was effectively 'standing alone against tyranny'. The 'free' soldiers of the various European nations, whilst no doubt good soldiers, made up only a small part of the war effort.

Canada, Australia, New Zealand, India, South Africa?? The Free armies actually played a massive role, the problem was re-equipping them, after Dunkirk it took far to long for Industry to start churning out necessary War materials, delayed in no small part Goering's suppression by bombing the industrial centres.

Murf · 21 Dec 2006 at 14:53

scorza said:
How would the Royal Navy have got close enough to the English channel if the Germans had air supremacy over it?

I don't think people here realise the sheer size and strength of the Royal Navy at that time.

Red and White · 21 Dec 2006 at 14:55

Murf said:
I don't think people here realise the sheer size and strength of the Royal Navy at that time.

disgraceful that we've let it slip

wordy · 21 Dec 2006 at 14:57

scorza said:
How would the Royal Navy have got close enough to the English channel if the Germans had air supremacy over it?

They would have had aircover from RAF fighter command plus their own air defences. As far as I'm aware the Germans didn't have air supmreancy over the channel.

Dj_Jestar · 21 Dec 2006 at 14:58

scorza said:
How would the Royal Navy have got close enough to the English channel if the Germans had air supremacy over it?

eh? The Royal Navy has direct access to the English Channel.. ?

TheMightyTen · 21 Dec 2006 at 15:00

scorza said:
How would the Royal Navy have got close enough to the English channel if the Germans had air supremacy over it?

The major plan was for a massed 'Suicide' cavalry like charge into the channel by the Royal Navy. It also seems apparent that Fighter Command were prepared to disengage at the time of invasion and relocate to Scotland and Northern England (Same as they did when the Germans rolled the Blitz Krieg over France) and lend what ever aid it could, bomber command were also commanded 'to do what ever it takes'. The real plan was to either disrupt the supplies lines so much the invading army 'starved on the vine' or buy enough time to remove the Government, Royal Family, and as many men and materials as possible to Canada with the expectation that the Invasion would bring the US into the war.

House · 21 Dec 2006 at 15:01

Diesel said:
I think you will find that Barbarossa began in June 1941. It were the subsequent winters that were to prove Germany's downfall in Russia.

I beleive you i didnt look it up and last studyed history over (OMG) 17 years ago, Eastern front part of the war is largely forgotten in "popular history" (meaning documentarys and the like)

Macabre · 21 Dec 2006 at 15:01

Nickg said:
you also forget the mother russia...impact on the war? massive!

True, Hitler didn't listen to his assistants who adviced him against it he sent his troops to Russia, a lot of them died on the journey there from the cold. Russia finnished them off.

The Running Man · 21 Dec 2006 at 15:02

Dj_Jestar said:
eh? The Royal Navy has direct access to the English Channel.. ?

i think he means that if germans had had full control of the airspace, even the AA guns onboard the fleet would not have kept the Navy afloat for too long.

Airplanes with torpedoes/bombs etc would have taken down a lot of ships and crippled the Navy.

take a look at the Pacific theater to see how devastating planes were to the ships.

scorza · 21 Dec 2006 at 15:03

Murf said:
I don't think people here realise the sheer size and strength of the Royal Navy at that time.

They were still very vulnerable from air based attack though. We should know - look what a few Swordfish's did against the Italian Navy and the Bismarck.

wordy said:
They would have had aircover from RAF fighter command plus their own air defences. As far as I'm aware the Germans didn't have air supmreancy over the channel.

I know they didn't - but if we'd have lost the Battle of Britain they would have.

TheMightyTen · 21 Dec 2006 at 15:04

Clerkin said:
disgraceful that we've let it slip

Was in my home town of Portsmouth in September and decided to take the harbour tour, of all the ships in only one was active in the Royal Navy, all the others were either mothballed or being refitted becuase they had been sold to foreign powers

wordy · 21 Dec 2006 at 15:07

Nickg said:
i think he means that if germans had had full control of the airspace, even the AA guns onboard the fleet would not have kept the Navy afloat for too long.

Airplanes with torpedoes/bombs etc would have taken down a lot of ships and crippled the Navy.

take a look at the Pacific theater to see how devastating planes were to the ships.

The RN would have had fighter cover by every available aircraft in the RAF,

In the case of the Royal Navy, they wouldn'tve just be using large slow ships of Destroyer size and above. There wouldv'e been corvettes and lots of torpedo/gunboats these small fast moving boats would've ripped the German landing craft to shreds

The Running Man · 21 Dec 2006 at 15:09

wordy said:
The RN would have had fighter cover by every available aircraft in the RAF,

In the case of the Royal Navy, they wouldn'tve just be using large slow ships of Destroyer size and above. There wouldv'e been corvettes and lots of torpedo/gunboats these small fast moving boats would've ripped the German landing craft to shreds

yes, the point we're making is that if UK air superiority was gone, the Navy would have had a tough job in the Channel, as it would have been shredded by the Luftwaffe!

and i reckon that in the confusion the U-Boats would have gained a foothold in the waters making it even more dangerous for the Navy!

TheMightyTen · 21 Dec 2006 at 15:16

Nickg said:
yes, the point we're making is that if UK air superiority was gone, the Navy would have had a tough job in the Channel, as it would have been shredded by the Luftwaffe!

and i reckon that in the confusion the U-Boats would have gained a foothold in the waters making it even more dangerous for the Navy!

That gives us another strange part of the plans for Sealion, it seems the Kriegsmarine were under orders to place the majority of it's U-boat force in the North Atlantic so as to catch any fleeing flotillas of ships carrying the British fighting forces :confused:

Which is another element that appears to indicate that the Germans were never going to make a serious attempt at the invasion.

scorza · 21 Dec 2006 at 15:20

wordy said:
The RN would have had fighter cover by every available aircraft in the RAF,

In the case of the Royal Navy, they wouldn'tve just be using large slow ships of Destroyer size and above. There wouldv'e been corvettes and lots of torpedo/gunboats these small fast moving boats would've ripped the German landing craft to shreds

You know what air supremacy is right? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_supremacy

Briton · 21 Dec 2006 at 15:22

wordy said:
It wasn't just "The Few" that thwarted Hitlers plans for invasion. It's been revised by historinans....and while the RAF did tremendous job of maintaining air superiorty over Britain, the Nazi's realised that any significant seaborne invasion would have been decimated by the Royal Navy. Which until the latter part of WWII was the largest and most capable Navy in the world.

Air superiority would probably resulted in invasion despite the Royal Navy.

As you said the RAF did a marvellous job but one theory is that they were all but defeated when Hitler diverted air forces to bomb London and other British towns and cities rather than continue to attack the RAF and our airfields etc. He did this in retaliation for a bombing raid on Germany. This allowed the RAF to recover and eventually to them winning the Battle of Britain. So you could say the 'Blitz' saved us.

Murf · 21 Dec 2006 at 15:41

I read somewhere that the Kriegsmarine didn't have the tonnage to get a large enough invasion force across the channel anyway.