Xbox One Doesn't Support AMD Mantle API

[Kaapstad]

I have put this in it's own thread as there is more to come

As proponents of the DirectX API, which single-handedly shaped consumer 3D graphics market for the past decade and a half, it shouldn't come as a shocker, that Microsoft's next-generation entertainment platform, the Xbox One, will not support AMD's ambitious Mantle project, a 3D API that's tailor-made for the company's Graphics CoreNext GPU micro-architecture, on which the GPU driving the Xbox One is based. The company released a statement to that effect mentioning that "other APIs" such as OpenGL and AMD Mantle won't be supported on Xbox One. Says Microsoft;
We are very excited that with the launch of Xbox One, we can now bring the latest generation of Direct3D 11 to console. The Xbox One graphics API is "Direct3D 11.x" and the Xbox One hardware provides a superset of Direct3D 11.2 functionality. Other graphics APIs such as OpenGL and AMD's Mantle are not available on Xbox One.
The Xbox One will support DirectX 11.2, an evolution over DirectX 11, which adds support for a new feature called "Tiled resources," which lets 3D apps more efficiently manage available hardware resources, by streaming portions of single large textures as a 3D scene being rendered demands it. It heralds a kind of virtual memory system for the GPU, and Microsoft could encourage game developers to take advantage of it, for their Xbox One titles. Such a feature already exists with OpenGL.

http://www.techpowerup.com/192549/xbox-one-doesnt-support-amd-mantle-api.html

 

[LtMatt]

As far as i understand it mantle can be used to make porting easier. I don't think Xbox one was ever going to give up DX11 API for mantle. I don't think mantle is intended as a replacement API for DX11 on xbox. I remember anand hinting something about it though, i guess that was wrong then.

 

[DJ_Bucho]

I'm quite surprised at this to be honest, seeing as it uses an AMD GPU, I thought they'd at least use one that does support it. Have Sony mentioned if the PS4 will support Mantle or are they keeping quiet?

 

[LtMatt]

http://www.techpowerup.com/192552/amd-explains-why-mantle-doesnt-work-on-xbox-one.html

Ah that backs up my post then.

Bring on the mantle plox.

EDIT

TPU must be fishing for clicks otherwise they would have these two articles on the same page.

 

[RichardH754]

There maybe hope yet for us DX and Nvidia users!

At least Xbox 1 games on PC should run ok then?

 

[drunkenmaster]

Shocked because Anandtech's theory that MS let AMD release their low level API for their console on PC's as a faster and better alternative to DX seemed so incredibly likely......

Mantle as is, is a PC api, I would be surprised due to the hardware similarity if it's not pretty close to workable to a low level API on the consoles. I honestly don't know what the Xbox 360 supports, the PS3 supports multiple API's and gives choice to the developer and they've said there will be some level of DX emulation on PS4 to help out indie devs who maybe only know, only have the money/time to support DX and can target all platforms with it. MS are generally closed in, have made life more difficult for everyone and promote DX at every given oppportunity.

Sony are relatively open, they've tried to help everyone out in that sense, offered more choices but ultimately had a bit of a pain in the ass platform to develop for. As such it was always more likely that AMD/Sony have a very real vested interested to work together on an API that offers every last ounce of performance while MS would no question shoot themselves in the foot if it meant helping an open standard get any kind of traction against their own closed standards.

Why would Xbox 1 games run on the PC fine and wouldn't before. DX has complete market dominance, there isn't a chance I don't think of a non DX game coming out in the next 2 + years. Maybe further down the line it's possible that say all games that come from Sony to PC and skip the Xbox use openGL and Mantle and no DX option but even that isn't too likely.

If Mantle and/or openGL manage to establish themselves, Linux/SteamOS gaming picks up hugely in the next several years then openGL could replace DX as the main API game dev's support and potentially in several years they could drop DX support from their engines... but seeing as every gpu for the past 15 years has supported openGL, that won't matter either.


Anyway, if a version of Mantle works on the PS4, or is maybe even a PC version of the main API on PS4, possible. The chance it was the Xbox low level API was slim to none, the chance Xbox 1 could have supported something similar in the same way PS3/4 support multiple API's... it almost certainly can support it, doesn't mean MS will use it or spend any effort making it work on the X1, it's not MS's style to support such a thing.

 

[Panos]

MS makes some funny moves lately, I wonder for the IQ the people in charge.

Xbox One is underpowered to boot, compared to the PS4, and "outright" not going to support Mantle API, even if actually the hardware is capable and could give it a boost.

That means, Xbox users, going still to play games at "720p" or "medium" settings while PS4 & PC going to fly at high resolutions and high settings, of the same games.

I see some interesting time ahead, and MS eating at the end the humble pie.

 

[maxilive]

AMD already have a "Mantle" based API created for the Xbox One/PS4 but it isn't Mantle itself as I very much doubt Microsoft/Sony would want to wait on a third party to unlock/improve features for their system. I'm guessing the chips on the consoles are feely open to Microsft/Sony software engineers so they can get even more than Mantle could out of the system of focus their coding on different performance improvements.

For example Mantle will be trying it hit a broad range of GPUs with different memory and speed settings along with different OS's then at the moment it is being coded with Dice who are probably trying to get it coded towards improving tessellated water or particle effects which I'm guessing are two of the biggest hitters for BF4. Where as MS/Sony and their 1st party developers (who the APIs are primarily designed for at the start of a generation) might not be interested in getting the performance boost in tessellation and would rather it go into computing power for physics (like realistic cloth physics).

I'm guessing it also causes a massive headache when MS/Sony update their systems that the APIS would be have to be updated somewhat to keep compatibility which probably comes with a hefty price tag and loss of control.

On top of all of that the current APIs console use will be very similar if not better performance than Mantle would provide if ported to a console with them having 2-3 years production already behind them (hence AMD saying Mantle has been in the work for 3 years, as the core of Mantle is straight from the console work I bet!) with 10-15 titles being launched by the end of the year with its API where as Mantle will have 1.

Later down the line it might be feasible to port it over but to be honest I don't think a console would see any performance gains of moving Mantle over as they are essentially using Mantle already.

 

[Gregster]

This just makes sense and I said it when Mantle was first spoken about. M$ would not be happy about Mantle in their Xbox and I expect Sony to do the same. They have their own API's. Humbug did tell me that M$ and Sony were working with AMD on this 2 years ago but seems he may have been wrong on this occasion.

 

[Silent_Scone]

Actually Panos it seems PS4 devs are still opting for 720P over 1080 at the moment. Whatever the reason for that is I couldn't tell you, but it would appear just because the console is similar in architecture doesn't mean developers are having an easy time of it.

Anyway OT with Mantle, I'm still all for it. But this article is exactly why they need to be careful how they spin this. The marketing has lead a lot of people to believe that it is in fact the same API as the next gen consoles, which obviously isn't the case. Seems the comparison was just to peek peoples interests.

 

[Cold_And_Miserable]

... there isn't a chance I don't think of a non DX game coming out in the next 2 + years.

Except for Doom4, games using RAGE or any engine developed by JC.

 

[Gregster]

Not often I am right, so I went digging

As far as Mantle being used in the xbone and ps4, I asked Josh @PCper and his response was what I replied here (they will be using there own low level api, so no need for Mantle).

It does seem possible it is being used for xbone and ps4, but I am sure they would have elaborated on it at GPU14 instead of just saying it is cross platform.

Speculation all round till confirmation.

Josh @PCper doesn't know, he's guesstimating just like the rest of us.

You might word your question to him differently "do you know for a fact they are not using Mantel"

Of course he is.

Probably better to read anand. They have a much better, more in depth article and take on the whole situation. Its a very good read from start to finish. However here's a tidbit.

Spoiler

What’s not being said, but what becomes increasingly hinted at as we read through AMD’s material, is not just that Mantle is a low level API, but rather Mantle is the low level API. As in it’s either a direct copy or a very close derivative of the Xbox One’s low level graphics API. All of the pieces are there; AMD will tell you from the start that Mantle is designed to leverage the optimization work done for games on the next generation consoles, and furthermore Mantle can even use the Direct3D High Level Shader Language (HLSL), the high level shader language Xbox One shaders will be coded against in the first place.

Let’s be very clear here: AMD will not discuss the matter let alone confirm it, so this is speculation on our part. But it’s speculation that we believe is well grounded. Based on what we know thus far, we believe Mantle is the Xbox One’s low level API brought to the PC.

If indeed Mantle is the Xbox One’s low level API, then this changes the frame of reference for Mantle dramatically. No longer is Mantle just a new low level API for AMD GCN cards, whose success is defined by whether AMD can get developers to create games specifically for it, but Mantle becomes the bridge for porting over Xbox One games to the PC. Developers who make extensive use of the Xbox One low level API would be able to directly bring over large pieces of their rendering code to the PC and reuse it, and in doing so maintain the benefits of using that low-level code in the first place. Mantle will not (and cannot) preclude the need for developers to also do a proper port to Direct3D – after all AMD is currently the minority party in the discrete PC graphics space – but it does provide the option of keeping that low level code, when in the past that would never be an option.

Full Article
http://www.anandtech.com/show/7371/understanding-amds-mantle-a-lowlevel-graphics-api-for-gcn

"Based on what we know thus far, we believe Mantle is the Xbox One’s low level API brought to the PC."

Seems elementary really, why would they design a different API when the same thing already exists

If i remember rightly they said its been in the works for 2 years, seems to me thats whats gone in the xBox One.

It seems Josh@PCper does know what he is talking about

 

[Silent_Scone]

Did it ever really make sense for Xbox One to support anything else other than DX?

The ivory tower AMD told a lil' white lie? Nooooo .

 

[Gregster]

Did it ever really make sense for Xbox One to support anything else other than DX?

The ivory tower AMD told a lil' white lie? Nooooo .

I think Josh@PCper is top notch and generally spot on. I couldn't possibly see why M$ would allow Mantle in their XBone but in the gaming industry, anything is possible.

 

[drunkenmaster]

Except for Doom4, games using RAGE or any engine developed by JC.

To be fair I said games, not crap tech demo's

Seriously though, I guess I should have stated, I can't see any games that would normally use DX in the next at least few years deciding to not use it.

openGL support makes more sense in general and I've been speaking up the BIG push the PS4/AMD hardware sweep in terms of game devs would have on linux and likely openGL, Mantle is just another element of this push, a very welcome surprise. But I've been suggesting for some months that Linux/openGL/AMD/PS4/windows exclusivity being dropped/AMD's need to compete with ARM and thus requiring support of a costless OS would all lead to much the same thing.

What I think we could see if Sony making a few cross platform games that don't include MS or Windows(exclusively) which would be new. IE a year after some Playstation exclusive is out, port it with openGL and Mantle and don't ever bother porting it to Xbox, cut MS out of the equation entirely.

Did it ever really make sense for Xbox One to support anything else other than DX?

The ivory tower AMD told a lil' white lie? Nooooo .

I'm trying to work out where AMD told a white lie, because Anandtech made an incorrect guess? The bigger question is, how on earth does a site as big and supposedly good as Anandtech not get that MS wouldn't have allowed it's own work to be used against Windows.... ever, there was no chance.

 

[flopper]

Internet is run by the most common dominator of human iq.
stupidity.

anyhow, I expect to read more articles where you pack togheter two different contexts and think they are the same. if a console did the same dx 11 you use on a PC, it would run half the fps the ps4 has. still Mantle is developed from the xbox api.
the above happens due to people dont know what an api is, what the difference is between hardware and platforms.

Microsoft cant say anything else than they do and support dx.
it be like ocuk would start selling cars instead.
just wont happen

 

[Silent_Scone]

I'm trying to work out where AMD told a white lie, because Anandtech made an incorrect guess? The bigger question is, how on earth does a site as big and supposedly good as Anandtech not get that MS wouldn't have allowed it's own work to be used against Windows.... ever, there was no chance.

They made multiple comparative references in their presentation, which is probably what lead Anandtec (who I don't hold in high regard review wise anyway) to believe it.

In their defence they make it clear it's speculation, but I can see why they came away from Hawaii thinking it.

 

[flopper]

http://www.techpowerup.com/192552/amd-explains-why-mantle-doesnt-work-on-xbox-one.html

What Mantle creates for the PC is a development environment that's _similar_ to the consoles, which already offer low-level APIs, close-to-metal programming, easier development and more (vs. the complicated PC environment). By creating a more console-like developer environment, Mantle: improves time to market; reduces development costs; and allows for considerably more efficient rendering, improving performance for gamers. The console connection is made because next-gen uses Radeon, so much of the programming they're doing for the consoles are already well-suited to a modern Radeon architecture on the desktop; that continuum is what allows Mantle to exist.

 

[Gregster]

In the presentation, they used the words "Cross platform" when talking about Mantle, so I can see why people jumped to conclusions.

 

[Silent_Scone]

Yeah, it just seems deliberately misleading. Unnecessarily too as anything that brings it closer to the metal on the PC platform is a really good thing. Mentioning the new consoles was only going to stir more interest though...