XFI vs Xonar : WTF?

[FatRakoon]

Everywhere I look, everyone is telling me how much better the ASus is over Creatives efforts and for years I have been using Creatives cards, I am a stupid hoarder and I still use a fair load of them in various PCs

2 x Audigy 1
2 x Audigy 2 ZS
1 x XFI Gamer
1 x XFI Extreme Gamer
1 x XFI Fatal1ty

And recently I added an Asus Xonar D2 to my collection.

The thing is, that the Asus is quite simply not as good as the XFI in spite of what people seem to say... Its simply not!

My main PC's Speakers are Altec Lansing 995 and they are a fair age now and so, I thought that they might simply be starting to struggle and so, I tok the Xonar and the XFI upstairs to my Music gear to give them a proper trial, using my Yamaha Pro amp & Studio Monitors and its the same on those... The XFI is simply a much better card than the Xonar.

As for stability etc, I have yet to have any issues at all with Win7/64 and any of the XFI's - Sure the Audigy 2 sometimes had a problem with the sound going silly but this was ONLY with the Dawn Of War game and never any other time, but that was all.

So, in spite of what the general masses seem to say about the Xonar, has anyone else found this, or is it just me?

 

[FatRakoon]

Yes, it seems to be that the Xonar seems to be better for Media and the XFI for games

I think that for me though, the crystaliser of the XFI takes it to way above what the Xonar has to offer

Define "not as good".

Ok, well clearly I have been testign my best quality files and also my most musically diverse... From the likes of Floyd to Zappa, from Oldfield to Ullulators, and ozric tentacles to Barbieri, so plenty of scope, mostly Im looking for plenty of rides & Cymbals played over a strong bassline with tons of mid-range.

I can see EXACTLY where people say the XFI is too clinical.

This is something I have said with all creative cards. I first noticed this when comparing the NF7S against a SBLIVE. They do indeed lack a warmth that isnt really noticed until you put them head to head against another card.

However, this alone is simply not enough.

When you hear some music, that is indeed playing a full range of sounds covering the entire audio spectrum, you can hear the differences, you can hear the times when the xfi goes over a certain part of a song and its flawless and then the xonar does the same place in the song and its not able to. It miht be a little muffled or the card certainly strain to play a part properly.

So, they do sound slightly different in the playback sure. The Xonar has a warmer sound than the XFI but then again, my 12 year old Turtle Beach Santa Cruz has a warmer sound than the XFI, so for me, thats a poor arguement, but when it comes to music across the range, the XFI plays them all back better.

And I dont mean any form of POP music or the like... Im talking proper music.

 

[FatRakoon]

I dont think EAX means much anymore.

Many new games are not even bothering with it, it seems?

Either way, I dont find much difference in environmental audio between the XFI and an Audigy 1.. Not really. Heck, even my old Turtle Beaches play back Environmental effects fairly well ( As long as nothing else plays or they kind of struggle LOL )

 

[FatRakoon]

Hi, what monitors are they? If they are NS-10's, then I can see why you may think the XFI sounds better, NS-10's are mid-fi at best. Also, your amp may or may not be helping here...

I suggest a decent pair of headphones would give you a better comparison of which card sounds best...

Personally I think the XFI sounds like a bag of crap, but one mans gold is another mans poison (or something like that )... So if you prefer the XFI then keep it!

On my Music studio, my AMP is a chevin Research Q6 and my monitors are Yamahas and the same also applies for my Adam P22's however, these are powered monitors and therefore do not require the amp. Both setups show the XFI to be superior to the Xonar.

My headphones are Beyerdynamic DT 990 which are certainly going to show me any minute differences between the two cards.

Oh, and funny you should mention, but I have only recently upgraded from a set of NS-10's... They are currently at my father in-laws as I am kind of trying to sell them to him and he is a bit of an audiophile and Im being a bugger and Im trying to get as much as I can for them ( And why not? - they are mint )

 

[FatRakoon]

Which Xonar did you go for?

I'm using an STX, the headphone out powers a pair of akg k272's which are very hard to drive, for me it's night and day better than other soundcards I've tried. I also use spdif fed to a Yamaha surround amp powering a B&W surround package, it works perfectly and I've not had any issues with surround or stereo audio streams.

The D2X - Admittedly not the best of the Xonars, but I have a couple of XFI Gamers and I was comparing the Xonar against the XFI Gamer as they are about the £70 mark it seemed a fair comparison.

OT: I miss Nvidia Soundstorm

I still have 2 Abit NF7S setups...

I too love SoundStorm... They did talk about a stand alone card didnt they? - although who THEY are or were I dont know... I just read somethign somewhere???

Would it have been such a great idea as a card? - I doubt it. It probably want that good looking back as the SBLive was a better option I feel

I dont know, but its certainly got a place in my heart thats for sure!

 

[FatRakoon]

The NS10's are very high quality... Better than the XFI and Xonars can provide them I feel, but yes... They have been with me a fair while now and I want better and so, thats why I am upgrading from them.

My main studio ( Although I feel studio is kind of making my kit sound more than it actually is ) is based on an Atari Falcon as the sequencer using CuBase Audio 2.6.

Ridiculous as it sounds, I still have not even got a Mixer that mixes both Digital and Analog and so, Im using a PC with an Audigy2 & Live Drive and its selected "WOT U HEAR" and thats the mixing of the digital line into Analog... Sad or what?

So, the NS10's are more, much more than I truly need in that respect, however, when it comes to playing some of my digital only music, Im only using the Atari & the FDI and thats when the Audigy2 shows its simply not up to it.

Its not that I actualyl want rid as such, but I have a buyer and he seems to want them, purely based on how much I have pimped them over the years really.

EMU - Again, this is somethign that I had considered some time ago.

We are going a little off my own personal plans here though... The XFI v the Xonar are obviously PC based setups. My speaker setups with those are Altec Lansing 995 ( XFI ) and Logitech Z5500 ( Xonar ).

The Chevin & Yamahas and thje Adams are for my Atari "Studio" ( ahem ).

I am more than happy with teh Atari setup... More than happy.

I am more than happy with my PC setups too... Even my lowest spec PC is better than most peoples.

Although in saying this, I have been looking more and more into external soundcards purely on the basis that a friend has one ( God knows what model ) and its astounding on his setup... Thats a firewire jobbie.

Seriously though... Can USB provide high quality hi definition Audio?

 

[FatRakoon]

The SBLive drivers were buggy, Soundstorm just worked. I can't help feeling that a chap from Creative stopped by Nvidia and dropped in a big brown envelope

OH?

Why? - I never had a problem with Creative cards!

 

[FatRakoon]

Ah come on... I got 2 TBSC cards... Well, one of them is the VLSF but they are the same card and they are a nice warm sound but to say they are better than the XFI is not only fooling yourself but its a downright blatant lie.

I know where yo uare coming from with it... I personally like the sound that they produce. Its a warm sound thats true, and warmer than the creatives seem to give, but there is next to zero high end ability with them, all sound being in the MID-LOW ( not low, just lower end of MID really )and there not being that much real scope in them, while creatives give a sharp sound.

Ah I dont know... but to compare the XFI and the TBSC / VLSF cards itys really beyond anything I can even comprehend!!!! - its like comparing a skateboard to a car when your only real true logic is that they both have 4 wheels.

Its times like this when I really can say that everyone's ears and tastes are different.

I think clearly ours are nothing like each others ???!?!?!?!?!???

LOL

 

[FatRakoon]

You use too many question and exclamations marks!

DO I ???????????

OH!!!!

LOL

The Santa Cruz DID sound better than the Xfi, the Cruz matched my then setup perfectly, it didn't need Sound Crystaliser or anything to open up the high end, it sounded best completely neutral and un-aided by any software triggered effects like the Xfi did. Put the Xfi into media/music mode and disable all the features in the driver to make it just as neutral and it doesn't sound as clear or warm as the SC let alone the Xonar.

I disagree. I see where you are coming from I truly do, but I alos feel that you are looking back on a card that for the time, was good, but to compare it with a current card... Is just wrong. Even with hardware thats well suited to the TBSC / SLSF there is just too much difference.

As a similar but different example, I remember years ago, having an MT100 and there was a sound called Dr Solo and I fell in love with it. More recently I wanted that sound again and I bought an MT32 but I realised that the sound was not as good as I remembered... I feel that maybe the TBSC is your MT32?

The fact that you find the Xonar lacking compared to the Xfi tells me that something else is wrong here in your setup perhaps rather than the Xonar being at fault because quite clearly the Xonar is every bit as good as it's advertised and it only takes a quick glimpse in magazines and online reviews to see this.

I doubt it. Not impossible but highly unlikely.

Or maybe it's a case of you being too used to the sound given by Creative cards in general, they have a signature sound colour that can be quite harsh on laid back setups, they're more suited to up front and lively setup I find. The SC/Xonars etc are laid back cards which deliver a warm sound with a wide soundstage and I like that, it's less fatiguing and more rewarding for relaxed listening.

Very possible yes.

I will admit that all creative cards are dull and lifeless without adjustments in their EQ and the Crysaliser on the XFI cards is a definite boost. but once you do adjust them to suit your gear / prefs they reall shine through.

 

[FatRakoon]

With well coded drivers and good circuit design, the answer is yes. I was sceptical and always thought PCI was better, but since I bought an 0404 USB, I was blown away how good it sounds. The headphone amp isn't bad either... Balanced in/out is nice too for connection to prosound gear.

If you can, see if you can borrow or hire a 0404 USB, with good speakers and amplification, you'll get very good results.

In fact the only downside is that I cannot hook it up to my Mac, but E-mu is owned by Creative, so I'm sure OSX drivers would be a big ask.

Just today I had a delivery of a really old Hercules Game theatre card & Box.
I reallyt dont know why I bought it other than its just one of those things that I waste money on to stop the taxman getting it I suppose?

Anyway its using the same chip as the TBSC is it not?

I have yet to play with it, and I am unsure whether I can drive it anyway???

I dont have any 32Bit O/S installed on any PC

Should be a laugh though

On to the USB idea - I will have a look into it and yes... I will need to have a trial before I can do anythign more.

 

[FatRakoon]

Yes, the VLSF an the TBSC as I have mentioned once or twice LOL

Both these a cards are identical. They give out a nice warm sound but games struggle wehen you heard more than one bullet, however they really do try to play environmental audio

 

[FatRakoon]

I have not used the SC since Vista came out so have no idea how it handles modern games

It doesnt.

but back in the day it played games perfectly well

Back in the day... Thgat a fair few years ago now though.

I recall the ambience of Max Payne and the positioning in Counter Strike to be precise and crisp.

Yes, as I have said, it was great for a lot of environmental stuff, my own experience as I recall was things like shooting at your enemies and then running through a tunnel and the sound of the bullets ricocheting and the guns shots etc all changed as you ran through the tunnel and then back out and it was fantastic...

But, with other explosions / bullets / noises going on, you rarely got this effect because the card simply could not handle it.

UnReal Tournament was the game that killed off the TBSC as a gaming card for me... The SBLIVE was more than enough to handle everything it was given and the TBSC simply could not come even close to pretending.

 

[FatRakoon]

Ok, been twiddling about again. Playing a few tracks and having all EQ set totally flat, then doing minor EQ Adjustments.

I am taking back a lot of what I said about these cards... I say a lot but not all.

The XFI, like all creative cards is dull and lifeless withotu EQ... I have always known that and I am sure that I have already sais it even in these very posts in this thread, but I have now actually forced myself to listen to a few tracks and actualyl compare the music to the Xonar ( And the TBSC funkily enough - and why not? )

Yeah, ok, its clear the Xonar is the winner on that score. In a cool kind of way the TBSC is still a lovely warm sounding card, but its still lacking towards the higher end of the scale and the XFI is definitely far ahead of it. But thats not to say the TBSC is bad... I have never said that... Not for music anyway because I do like the TBSC / VLSF cards.

I feel thouhg that, for my tastes, I cannot keep a card set to a flat EQ... I cannot.

I have to some adjustments. In a very basic EQ, I suppose on a scale of 1 to 5, Lo would need to be at a 4, Mid a 3 and hi a 5. On a complex EQ it would I suppose look like a ****-eyed smile, pulling the Lo up a little and the hi up a lot.

Now, this puts me into a situation... Which is better, the XFI or the Xonar?

Well, speakers play a huge role dont they? The Altec Lansing 955s are in the living room because I personally feel that they are better sounding than the Z5500's and so, given that the EQ range on the XFI goes far further than it does on the Xonar, I still say that for me, the XFI is a better sounding card.

So, I am going to keep the XFI and the Altec Lansing 955s in the living room and the Xonar on the Logitechs in the LAN room.

Is this the best option? probably not, but I feel that it is.

 

[FatRakoon]

Have you tried the Xonar on non PC speakers at all? I cannot find any info on the AL 955s you mention but you really should hook up a stereo amp with a decent interconnect connected to some non PC speakers - the Xonar is right at home in a setup like that

Yes, in my music room ( listen to me FFS! - its a converted attic, but lets pretend eh? ) I have a choice of chevin Q6 amp connected to Yamaha ClubV speakers, or a pair of Adam P22 powered Monitors. Both those setups are infinitely superior to a home HiFi.

When I say home HiFi, I do of course mean one of thiose nasty all in one stereo unit things that so many people think are HiFi.

However, when used all the time, they will be connected to a set of Logitech Z5500 speakers.



The Altec Lansing 995 - I know I keep putting in 955 but its 995

NINE - NINE - FIVE

Only Dell supplied them, and they have no Volume or headphone sockets etc so they can be limiting and the VOL is done through my keyboard and the Headphones are done through a live drive... Another reason why I feel that I need a creative drive bay in my Living room PC.

I have done a few posts recently about drive bay units but I have not founf one with the same functions as the Creative ones on the A2ZS and the Fatal1ty that ?I could use with the Xonar... Hell if you check back, I also wanted to use one with the Turtle beach not that long ago.

 

[FatRakoon]

Oh I know a good 2 speaker setup is much much better than a 5.1

The 5.1 setups are there for the gaming aspect of it and, the Altec Lansing setup I much prefer for music than the Logitech.

Yes, I accept that both the Altec lansing and the Logitech setups are not going to be anywhere near as good as the Q6 / Adam options, and thats why they are upstairs on teh studio kit and the 5.1 jobs are on gaming PCs

Its a compromise though isnt it?

For my main PC, which does as much gaming as music, the best option I feel is the XFI + Altec 995 setup... Since doing some tests the last couple of days I have found plenty of flaws, or shall I say "Features" that I never noticed before in all my setups and even though I think that both the 995 and the Z5500 setups are absolutely unbeatable, I have realised just how poor they really do perform again proper kit. I knew they would, but I just never knew how much.

And yes, the Z5500's are bloody awful and there is simply too much of a gap between what the satellites can do, and what the Bass does, this is not present in the 995's and these give a good full range from all the satellites, and the bass sounds are smoother.

 

[FatRakoon]

I think that this is all relative.

I mean, I have never had a single issue with Creative cards, I am the very proud owner of a number of PCs and they all have various flavours of creative cards, I have had quite possibly every type of creative card there is, ok no I have not, but every major one yes I have, I still have in use right now, the following :-

1 x Audigy 1 - With a Live Drive from a SBLive!
2 x Audigy 2 ZS - one with a Live Drive and one without
2 x XFI Gamers - one is a generic and one is a Dell with Oiptical I/O
1 x XFI Fatality

I dont know how they fare with Bog standad XP but I know the Audigy 1 played fine with it, I have not used a 32 Bit O/S for quite some years, and with XP64 they ran just fine and never gave me any problems.

I will however contradict myself here, but, the Audigy 2 ZS on my Gigabyte DS4 Motherboard, with the Q9550 and 4x1GB GEIL RAM, did on occasion make a silly sound. However, this was ONLY during playing WarHammer Dawn Of War, and NEVER any other time. I never had this issue with any other Setup or when I swapped the A2ZS for an XFI.

Another issue that I have had, was when I tried to swap from the A2ZS to the XFI, it would completely lose the plot and often failed to find any soundcard at all... I had to made fully sure that any and all traces of the drivers were goen before I tried to put in the other card.

Again, this only happened on the DS4 but never on any other system.

I have 8 Pcs that I currently use almost every day on my LAN and a furthre 5 that I use on occasion and for only one PC to be a problem out of those, I am perfectly happy... Sure it was my main PC and thats been a pain in the butt, but still, I cannot complain at all about Creative cards because for that to be my only issue in all these years and on all these PCs, its pathetic of me if I moaned.

I have now also got an Asus Xonar and, like my XFI, I am very happy indeed with it, however, I am still using the XFI as my main PCs Audio of choice.

Oh, one other issue that I have had with the XFI Fatality is that when I trioed to use the drivers, I did indeed get some issues. I am now running Windows own drivers and its fine. ( Windows 7 - 64Bit Like I said I dont use any form of 32Bit O/S )

 

[FatRakoon]

Did they stop straight away or did they fade out over the past few weeks?

Its clear by every post abotu the Creative cards that I have seen, not just here, but over time, that some people have issues and some do not, and I think that its down to certain component mixes.

The biggest single cause seems to almost definitely be the NVIDIA GFX + 4GB + CREATIVE

I would add to that and say that I have been running that on 3 of my setups and I have had next to ZERO issues

My setups that are closest to that are :-

Gigabyte DS4 / Intel Q9550 / 4x1GB KingstonX / Palit 250 GTS / XFI Fatal1ty
Gigabyte DS3 / AMD 9550x4 / 4x1GB Geil / Asus 280GTX / XFI Gamer ( With optical I/O )
Asus A8NSLI / Opteron175 / 4x1GB Corsair / 2x7800GTX / XFI Gamer

Now those setups are 100% flawless except the DS4 used to be running the Audigy 2 ZS and on occasion would mess about and only when playing Dawn Of War... Never any other time.
I have now swapped the Audiogy 2 ZS for the XFI and all is well.

I guess I have been very lucky, but I have never had an issue with creative cards that cannot be resolved in one way or another and I suppose as I have many other PCs, I guess that when I have real issues, I always have something that I can put it in and use something else instead, but OTTOMH I cannot think of a time that I have had to do that???

 

[FatRakoon]

I've had 4GB issues with Creative cards on ULi (produced before nVIDIa bought them) chipset with both ATI and nVIDIA GPUs.

Dont get me wrong a fair few people have issues with many various setups. Im not saying that everyone with the 4GB / Creative / nVidia combo will have issues and no one else, but it seems that most of the users who do have this issue have had it with them.

Can anyone with a Xonar D2/X bring some light on surround sound setups with the latest games and how its working?

Or should I just get the damn card? Im hoping to order today

You said it yourself...

Just get the damn card

The Asus, while not game oriented like the XFI, does have the power to handle all your games needs... and some.

So, Shut up and buy one... You wont regret it

 

[FatRakoon]

LOL that will only make things worse I recon.

 

[FatRakoon]

I can't compare an X-Fi era Creative card with the Xonar, as I haven't had a Creative since the Audigy 2ZS Platinum Pro but I don't miss their poor drivers/support and I love my Xonar.

My Audigy is still in service but every wee while it forgets it's installed and I have to take it out and put it in another PCI slot to remind it. Very odd indeed! Nothing much to do with sound quality though I suppose... I do miss the break-out box of the Creative, but not much else. Xonar for me.

My audigy used to have that very same issue.. Forgetting its there and a PCI slot rotation cured it great.

Im sure that was on the Gigabyte 965P DS3, and I am also sure that I cured that issue with a BIOS update... in fact, no, thats exactly how I cured it, so... Something for you to check out there.

As for the breakout boxes, yes, I still call them Live Drives. But my speakers ( Altec Lansing 995 ) have no volume control or headphone socket, and so I am pretty much forced to use some for of Drive bay for the headphones and the keyboards need a volume control too.

I prefer it this way anyway.

But the Live Drive issue can I suppose be cured with Front I/O Panels however none of them give me the stuff that I get on the creative bays.

I recently bought the ASUS thingy fron OCUK and it was utter rubbish and I got a refund ( minus postage ) and in the end I bought the Fatal1ty... Thats a total waste of money if you ask me.

My main PC and my kids PCs all have Creative cards with teh Live Drives.
My No2 PC has a xonar however, but no live drive ( Doesnt need it, but I will still find somehting for it cos thats how I like my PCs )
Plus I just like the front end to look "Busy". I hate bare systems they bore me.

Last year I was considering changing my X-FI extreme music for a Xonar, cos I had upgraded from pc speakers to a av amp and bookshelfs,

Go for it.
The better your AMP / Speaker setup, the better you will see the Xonar is.

Although to be completely honest, the XFI has a very wide range on its EQ settings and that crystaliser is a bit funky. They are a lot closer than many people seem to make out, but the xonar definitely is better.