The 150BHP Rover 416 Explained... Mod Reccomendations needed! :)

[SpeedFreak]

On the K-series the usual way the gaskets go is mixing the oil and coolant.

But they are also known to be prone to giving false symptoms - as in mayo in the oil when it's just condensation (as with most engines, but some are worse than others for it.)

Ultimate terminal signs are when severe water loss occurs, the oil actually emulsifies into choccy milkshake coloured goo, and the coolant looks like something you'd pull out of a McDonald's fryer, that is if you have any coolant left.

It is unusual for it to only occur one way - as in to get oily mayo but none in the coolant or vice versa. With the constantly changing pressures the exchange of fluids both ways is very common.

I wonder who remembers when engines were air cooled, and none of this was an issue

Mine is losing water at the minute, but that's the inlet manifold gasket, which I reckon a lot of garages think OMG must be the head gasket and charge somebody £500 for the work when 1 hours labour and £10 of parts will do the job. I have the parts and will probably do it next weekend.

The biggest symptom of HGF is mayo along with no hot air in the the cabin. Combustion gas leakage blocks the flow of coolant completely, with the IMG you get coolant circulation and a warm cabin, just regular loss of coolant which can be seen at the edge of the gasket.

 

[Nick1881]

The local boy racers to me are running Evo 8 MR340, Scooby STi's and a 600bhp Supra lol.

Fair play for having a go at some decent mods, I wouldnt call it mean looking its kind of a sleeper I guess.

Please dont guess power figures or time 0-60 on a stop watch. Get it on the rollers and lets see some whp figures.

Or rather than modding it anymore wait til your insurance drops a bit and chop it in for a Civic VTi-S, still a rover shell but 170bhp 1.8 B Series Honda power.

 

[ShakenNstirred]

i`d say 120 bhp tops

 

[MagicBoy]

I'm feeling generous - 135bhp assuming it doesn't have warp mileage on it,

 

[AmDaMan]

As Dolph pointed out when you have had the cams fitted you really NEED to get it remapped on the rollers, otherwise you wont be getting anywhere near it's full potential. Cams on a n/a 1.6 won't do all that much anyway especially if it's not been mapped up... what cams were they?

The rest of the mods are just standard breathing mods so 40bhp from all that is optimistic i'd say.

You have done sensible mods though, i'd be putting the 2.0 turbo in and leave it at that, can't imagine they are all that expensive (probably about the same price as cams and a map!)

edit: the cams don't need pulleys or an aftermarket ECU at all, not on this spec. I'd also agree about the mesh... just don't

 

[Dolph]

You really do need a different ecu as the standard one doesn't allow for a custom map or variation of much at all. Likewise vernier pulleys make for a much better chance of getting the cam timing spot on for the engine, rather than simply being close enough.

 

[Steve]

Schrick cams, Full Miltex Exhaust with 100 cell race cats and a Rolling road and live mapping session along with £5000 of my cash saw a 45 bhp gain on my e46 M3. Whilst I know the engine in the M3 is at a high state of tune so is tought to tune but you still get the idea that getting power out of a car is not that easy.

Without a remap I doubt you have made any real power apart from placebo power level of over 9000!!!!!11!1

Congrats on doing all the work though as I would not want to take that way from you as it is most impressive I do think it is a bit of a waste of your time and skill to try and do a performance mod on such an unworthy car (Not bashing rovers just the model).

To truly make this car go faster change the brakes, suspension and tyres, if you can stop faster then you can brake later so go quicker!

 

[mattyprice4004]

Fair enough, thanks for the input. I'm gonna get it rolling roaded soon, that should be interesting. Maybe we were a bit optimistic, it does feel better after the mods, esp at the very low and high ends.

Spose it'll see me through until funds allow for something else, the main reason I've kept it is because I think the K-series engines are a masterpiece of engineering for it's time, and I'm keen to keep learning about them.

The 2l Turbo isn't a K engine, it's a T series, so doesn't really have the weaknesses mine has, that'd be seriously fun to drive too

I always liked the 220 Coupe 'Tomcat', very smart IMO. Uses the same aforementioned 2l turbo engine, at around 200BHP standard. Also has a *very* nice, low interior, and great feel internally. Just the fuel cost scares me.

I'd be reluctant to sell this and move on as it's pretty nippy, handles well, and is very good on fuel for a 1.6. I get around 38-40MPG if I'm sensible (but still fairly hard driving).

There are a lot of modded cars in Preston - tis good to go and have a nosey and talk to a few of the owners when they meet. Scoobies seem very common

As for the HG related talk, I did my inlet manifold gasket 3 weeks ago and it cut my water loss a fair bit. Was losing about a litre per tank of fuel, now about half of that.

 

[Steve]

Good attitude to have mate, no one is dissing your work as you have done more than most people here but lots of valid comments about tuning that you are sensible taking on board by the sounds of it

sorry but the "Nippy" term makes me smile and always translates into a slow small car that gives the illusion of speed What other cars have you driven if I may ask as speed is relative to your experiences I suppose.

 

[mattyprice4004]

Good attitude to have mate, no one is dissing your work as you have done more than most people here but lots of valid comments about tuning that you are sensible taking on board by the sounds of it

sorry but the "Nippy" term makes me smile and always translates into a slow small car that gives the illusion of speed What other cars have you driven if I may ask as speed is relative to your experiences I suppose.

Lol suppose my mate's Metro would equate to nippy then, with mine I don't really feel the acceleration but always seem surprised to glance at the speedo and see I'm doing 60 or 70 when I thought i'd only picked upto maybe 40 or 50.
Doesn't half pull away in 2nd and 3rd.

Cars I've had a stab in...

My old Fiesta Diesel (oh dear god that was slow)
Astra 1.8 (fairly snappy when needed)
Fiesta Zetec 1.4 (again, not too bad)
Vectra 1.9CDTI (newer type, that was pretty decent)
Primera 2.0 SRi (fairly meh)

Those were pretty nice (apart from the diesel Fiesta, sadly the only one of the above I owned!), none of them felt a million miles away either way from the Rover from what I remember.

I think I might change a few plans and save for the Focus or something similar, as I've just noticed how cheap newer cars are... haven't been looking for a while

 

[Dogbreath]

A
edit: the cams don't need pulleys or an aftermarket ECU at all, not on this spec. I'd also agree about the mesh... just don't

How do you work this out? Any aftermarket cam is likely to have the correct timing point somewhat shifted from the original keyway, whether mild or wild. Without some method of adjusting the cam timing, be it vernier pulleys or offset dowels you are potentially just throwing power away.

Also why do you think the stock fueling and ignition map will still be suitable for the engine running different cams and exhaust manifold? The MEMS ECU is adaptive and will trim fueling under cruise conditions, but at W.O.T. where correct fueling counts the most it won't since the engine will (or should) be running somewhat richer than 14.7:1.

 

[Pigeon]

I heard the 2L rover engine (the 220 turbo one) will not fit as the engine bay is tight? The 2L Rover 45 is a V6, and then you are better off going straight for the 2.5 V6 like the ZS 180.

I had a friend who got given a HGF 414 a few years ago. He went down the 1.8 K series route and fitted a VVC K series. Made it into a bargain little fun car that ended up with some more ZS suspension bits and streetwise alloys!

 

[Steve]

Cars I've had a stab in...

My old Fiesta Diesel (oh dear god that was slow)
Astra 1.8 (fairly snappy when needed)
Fiesta Zetec 1.4 (again, not too bad)
Vectra 1.9CDTI (newer type, that was pretty decent)
Primera 2.0 SRi (fairly meh)

My list would be

xr3i (110bhp)
Calibra 16v(150bhp)
BMW e36 320 (150bhp)
BMW e36 M3 (321bhp)
BMW e46 M3 (370bhp)
Astra VXR (280bhp)
BMW 840 (285bhp)
TVR Cerbera (400bhp)

So you see for me "nippy" comes in at about 280bhp for a coupe/saloon and maybe 200bhp for a hatch. I am sure there are people who have a car history that makes all my old rides look like a Diesel Fiesta

 

[AmDaMan]

How do you work this out? Any aftermarket cam is likely to have the correct timing point somewhat shifted from the original keyway, whether mild or wild. Without some method of adjusting the cam timing, be it vernier pulleys or offset dowels you are potentially just throwing power away.

Also why do you think the stock fueling and ignition map will still be suitable for the engine running different cams and exhaust manifold? The MEMS ECU is adaptive and will trim fueling under cruise conditions, but at *** where correct fueling counts the most it won't since the engine will (or should) be running somewhat richer than 14.7:1.

I assumed most modern ECU's were quite programmable anyway? Depending on the cams I wouldn't have thought it would be worth while to go for pulleys etc. Pulleys might be useful for every single bit of power you want to extract but price vs power gain... worth it? Will adjusting the timing via the map/knock sensor be fine for most of the power anyway?

I hardly think a cam on a 1.6 would require increased fuelling, the pump should be fine for that? At higher RPM where the engine needs fuel what's the bottle neck? I doubt the injectors etc will be struggling nor will the pump and this can be sorted by a map on a RR.

You know your stuff so i'd like to know where I'm misunderstanding

 

[Simon]

The Stock Mems ecus aren't too bad for adjusting for engine mods. Obviously not ideal compared to standalone but certainly better than equivilent engine management systems

 

[Berger]

As for the HG related talk, I did my inlet manifold gasket 3 weeks ago and it cut my water loss a fair bit. Was losing about a litre per tank of fuel, now about half of that.

Sounds buggered somewhere to me, be it a leaking coolant hose or radiator, but somethings amiss.

My VVC uses almost no coolant at all. Ive filled it from min to max in the expansion tank once in maybe 3000 miles and 5 months.

The 220 Turbo coupe lump will fit, requires the subframes engine, gearbox and some other gear from the engine donor car, but it will fit in the engine bay of the 400.

 

[peter212693]

You know you want a focus On the other hand, I know rovers have a real rubbish rep but this is a nice tidy car.

 

[mattyprice4004]

Cheers Pete I really wouldn't mind a Focus, they're nice and tidy, nippy enough, and look the dog's ********.

Until money permits, the Rover will stay though. As for the engine conversion, I looked into it a bit ago now, and it is possible - although the gearbox needs to be swapped, as does the subframe I think (mounting points are present though).

With regards to my mammoth coolant loss, I suspect the rad, as it has seen better days. K-series engines can also leak into a cylinder from the HG, so that's a possibility, although it is said I'd notice more steam and lumpy running.

I hate boy-racery mods, so everything will remain tasteful and such .

I'm happy with the car for now, thanks for everyone's input! And I thought all we talked about was computers... (and people's girlfriends )

Mat

 

[peter212693]

Yea run her untill she goes bang! Then street might be selling his car, so you could snap up a bargin!

 

[mattyprice4004]

Aye, his is decent, if he sells then I'd deffo take a look if the cash is there to do it!

I'd have to have a diesel, don't think I could afford to run a Ze.

Just been out in mine to Southport front for a walk, and reminds of how much I don't wanna get rid yet

Mat