Soldato
Poll: The EU Referendum: What Will You Vote? (New Poll)
- Thread starter RJC
- Start date
- Status
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...e-war-Brexit-claims-t-survive-without-us.html
It looks like the Germans think they can rule Europe, think again you German kraut.
I seem to recall that we buy more from Europe than we sell them. They are unlikely to want a trade war.
I have no real opinion on Europe but with the recent, utterly bizarre and completely counter-effective new proposals regarding firearms (both live and deactivated) I can only vote to leave.
(The proposals wish to ban all ownership of certain types of deactivated weapon and bring in new, crazily stringent methods of deactivation for existing 'deacs'. Both measures with aid criminal and terrorist groups immensely! I can describe it all further if anyone's interested.)
(The proposals wish to ban all ownership of certain types of deactivated weapon and bring in new, crazily stringent methods of deactivation for existing 'deacs'. Both measures with aid criminal and terrorist groups immensely! I can describe it all further if anyone's interested.)
Soldato
I will be voting out. The EU is an authoritarian dictatorship that is completely unaccountable to anyone.
While in the UK we don't have a true democracy (rather the weakest form of it) it is still a shred more accountable than the buffoons who operate in the EC
I was rather enlightened to discover that we cannot do any trade with countries unless the EU say so and even then they have to have an interest.
The media once again are showing themselves as North Korean as they have not informed the nation about the Corporate ruling law that is TTIP
While in the UK we don't have a true democracy (rather the weakest form of it) it is still a shred more accountable than the buffoons who operate in the EC
I was rather enlightened to discover that we cannot do any trade with countries unless the EU say so and even then they have to have an interest.
The media once again are showing themselves as North Korean as they have not informed the nation about the Corporate ruling law that is TTIP
Last edited:
Can you use your head for one second? You want all the advantages of EU trade but no disadvantages whatsoever? Why would anyone in the EU accept it? Trade would take a serious hit in the event of an exit, there's no debate about it, the UK sells mainly services and those can be sold by others in the EU. Since you xenophobes are so eager to leave, do you also have a plan on covering the costs, other than "Don't worry about it, we used to be an empire!"?.
Soldato
Zethor, we can and are capable of operating trade elsewhere. If there is any unfairness from the EU we could take them to that other corrupt organization the WTO.
If the UK leaves, maybe other nations will follow suit. The Yes to EU campaign is funded by the bankers.... That is all the evidence any sagacious person should need to know to vote no.
Greece had its debt hidden by Goldman Sachs prior to joining and now 90% of all bailout money goes not to the people but yep you guessed it... The banks!
If the UK leaves, maybe other nations will follow suit. The Yes to EU campaign is funded by the bankers.... That is all the evidence any sagacious person should need to know to vote no.
Greece had its debt hidden by Goldman Sachs prior to joining and now 90% of all bailout money goes not to the people but yep you guessed it... The banks!
Soldato
I'm interested
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...e-war-Brexit-claims-t-survive-without-us.html
It looks like the Germans think they can rule Europe, think again you German kraut.
If that were true, why didn't HMRC this week say their hands were tied by the EU?
The more I think of the "in" arguments the more I think they are flawed
The trade and immigration thing is crazy.
If we need unskilled workers to fill jobs just because we are out of the eu doesn't mean we can't get these. It just means we can get who we want.. See Australia!
And if we have something the eu wants or need something the eu has to offer we can still trade
VW is hardly going to get snotty with us and stop selling us cars
Eu has much more to loose from us leaving than vice versa.
Not that many countries are net contributers. And the ones that are each represent a big chunk of net eu benefit
Yet they are playing a dangerous game. So few British people think of themselves as European. (I sure don't)
I see the eu as a club we pay for but get left on the sidelines. We are only wanted for our economy/contribution
I don't really know If the eu members really think we will go. I don't know if they really see it as a possibility. But its there and they (more than anyone) are helping us out the door
All the polls seem to be swinging to out
I've gone from 'abstain' to out myself
The trade and immigration thing is crazy.
If we need unskilled workers to fill jobs just because we are out of the eu doesn't mean we can't get these. It just means we can get who we want.. See Australia!
And if we have something the eu wants or need something the eu has to offer we can still trade
VW is hardly going to get snotty with us and stop selling us cars
Eu has much more to loose from us leaving than vice versa.
Not that many countries are net contributers. And the ones that are each represent a big chunk of net eu benefit
Yet they are playing a dangerous game. So few British people think of themselves as European. (I sure don't)
I see the eu as a club we pay for but get left on the sidelines. We are only wanted for our economy/contribution
I don't really know If the eu members really think we will go. I don't know if they really see it as a possibility. But its there and they (more than anyone) are helping us out the door
All the polls seem to be swinging to out
I've gone from 'abstain' to out myself
The following is all off the top of my head - apologies if any of it is inaccurate. It's complicated but I'll try to be brief on the main points:
- Current UK standards of deactivation are rigourous and it is pretty much impossible to reactivate a deactivated gun. If you did, you'd have the skills and tools to be able to build one from scratch already.
- For every 1 real firearm that the police take off our streets the collectors market renders 500 inert.
- The proposals want to ban ownership of certain firearms types - whether deactivated or not. You can bet this will be machineguns, probably any semi-automatic and almost definitely Kalashnikov-type variants. This will create a large surplus of live weapons that are already ideal for criminals and terrorists. With no lucrative collecting market any more, these weapons can only really become vastly cheaper and bleed into European black markets.
- Museums and the like will not be exempt.
- Also, with fewer deacs on offer, the price of the legal ones will rise hugely. This makes criminal elements in the UK that want a weapon simply for show less likely to be able to afford an inert weapon and more likely to actually buy the real thing, illegally. (Simply put, if I'm mugged at gun-point, I want there to be a huge chance that the mugger is pointing a deac at me and not a real shooter.)
- The proposals want things like dust covers and magazines permanently welded into place - this means customs officials will NOT be able to inspect the main deactivation work carried out inside the weapon, allowing live weapons to be brought across borders under the guise of deacs and then very simply reactivated.
Honestly, almost all of the proposals are completely bonkers and are a knee-jerk reaction to the Paris tragedies. I'm no gun-nut and I support intelligent solutions to gun control.
Last edited:
Soldato
With the way voting usually goes on important national issues in the EU. If Britain votes to leave, they will probably have to keep voting until they decide to stay in the EU.
Soldato
Yes, it seems crazy but nothing surprises me any more
Soldato
- Joined
- 1 Mar 2010
- Posts
- 6,306
Tl;dr: Your tangents tend to zoom miles past their goal; I was bored and took a poke at them, since they do make me laugh, just like your love of conspiracy theories.
The long version; you should have kept on going, but here:
datalol-jack said:
However, if you need things spelt out for you...
Banks: Never funded one pressure group. Kippers, Leave.EU, and now the new GO formation, are the most visible of the bunch. He raises some PR stink, spreads his bets and can effectively channel funding into multiple organisations with a common goal, that just will happen to overlap in key constituencies in their 'legitimate activities', effectively side-stepping any campaigning limit, even if no official Out organisation is recognised by the Electoral Commission.
Yanks would say, 'There's more one PAC to whip a rep!'
Tories: Move strategic staff around the country on their own dime; whose remit 'may or may not' include 'helping out' their local party organisation. Accounting complexities can be challenged, but if effectively defended and justified, it becomes hard to prove any foul play. And wins within the law still count however 'sneaky'.
Point: There are no innocent cherubs either side of the political divide. Both tactics have been imported from across the pond to fight highly emotional, polarised elections (substance is optional, but you seem to like this sort of jig) with hard cold cash; they aren't going away in favour of Queensberry rules of political pugilism any time soon; and the situation is likely to get worse should we end up outside the EU. So your 'attack on character' tangent (which you're so fond of) against the Remain camp cannot even get off the ground, even if we were to grant you your little preoccupied deviations.
Thus, if you do choose to fight elections in a populist mud pit, be wary of men with experience... be doubly wary of those who hand you the towel.
------------------
Bonus irony: British 'patriots' watching a propaganda channel of a foreign state, because apparently the BBC and other major national outlets are corrupt beyond measure, to reinforce their prejudiced view on a crucial political decision -- you cannot make it up!
Be honest, did you just tune in to see 'ol Nige flash his debate-winning TV grin? Or do you just prefer the broadcasters who say the things you like to hear? Further bonus irony: Leave's most media exposed financial backer, who claims to support a thriving, independent Britain... proceeds to shed 150 British jobs before the referendum is even on. It's his business decision, but the PR value of it is shocking if you take his rhetoric at face value. :\ I do hope he sees political sense and keeps the punters on until the smoke settles in June at least!
Last hurrah: Rabidly anti-Tory, but still puzzlingly Blue Labour voters, either for lack of quality information, education or general quality of life, are pushing for a political decision that will inexorably hand their 'sworn enemy' a near-total dominion over their lives.
In the words of the Leave camp, 'There will be pain!'. Turkeys, Christmas, what what! I'll do alright either way, but I don't see the disenfranchised working class logic in this.
Are we? Then why are we not doing that trade NOW? Where will you sell the services Britain sells once the French and Germans start looking elsewhere? Australia, the country with a population slightly higher than Romania? China, which has a dramatically different culture and needs? Again, what is preventing us from taking advantage of those opportunities now?
Do you people live under rocks? The world's economy is slipping back into recession, China is tanking as are Brazil, Russia or Japan. Uncertainity is growing so what do you want to do? More uncertainity, more unknowns and for what? You can't stand a bunch of Eastern European plumbers or car washers, you can't see the difference between today's reality and nationalistic delusions of English grandeur?
This whole thing is bat **** crazy. And yes, bankers are against the exit because they can't make money on broke people.
Soldato
- Joined
- 1 Mar 2010
- Posts
- 6,306
Zethor is covering more global market conditions (BRICs is a stillborn dodo for now it seems); so I'll focus on Germany and its trade specifically vs us; judge and surmise for yourselves:
German rankings of trade: https://www.destatis.de/EN/FactsFigures/NationalEconomyEnvironment/ForeignTrade/TradingPartners/Tables/OrderRankGermanyTradingPartners.pdf?__blob=publicationFile
German balance of trade: http://www.tradingeconomics.com/germany/balance-of-trade
http://atlas.media.mit.edu/en/profile/country/deu/
British rankings of trade:
https://www.uktradeinfo.com/Statistics/Pages/Monthly-Tables.aspx -- Excel spreadsheet
http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/uktrade/uk-trade/july-2015/stb-uk-trade--july-2015.html -- drill down, ONS likes its verbosity
British balance of trade:
http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/balance-of-trade
http://atlas.media.mit.edu/en/profile/country/gbr/
----------------------------
Ignoring bombastic idiots on both sides of the debate for the moment, in my opinion [even if you may hate finance, economics and business (beyond a plucky sole trader)] if both sides settle for the nuclear option on trade, or worse -- case-by-case, sector-by-sector negotiations, dithering and damaging tariff arrangements, temporary or otherwise -- we'll come out much worse for wear at the end of it, swallowing more national debt in the process.
This additional debt will then have to be paid for either via further cuts or more debt, stimulus and higher taxes; neither of which will do that great in a predominantly service-oriented economy reliant on imports. So more debt. Jobs, especially menial jobs, follow trade and money in a climate of robust economic activity, which is affected by national debt and means to stem both its absolute amount and the rate of its accumulation (deficit). Add to that panicked markets, and the greater cost of state borrowing should Brexit + trade punch-up downgrade our credit worthiness.
Low wage workers, who believe their jobs will be more secure if market setters and leaders get shafted, often operate under the illusion of 'no indirect network effects', i.e. 'I can't see how X business activity affects me, so it won't affect me.' fallacy.
People who contend that we can somehow resurrect the 'Imperial Preference' (via WTO? Oh Lordy -- that's a laugh!), whilst we flap about without a plan (preferred Leave option) to diversify the economy and plug the gap are beyond naive, and really have no clue what things actually cost in time and treasure.
German rankings of trade: https://www.destatis.de/EN/FactsFigures/NationalEconomyEnvironment/ForeignTrade/TradingPartners/Tables/OrderRankGermanyTradingPartners.pdf?__blob=publicationFile
German balance of trade: http://www.tradingeconomics.com/germany/balance-of-trade
http://atlas.media.mit.edu/en/profile/country/deu/
British rankings of trade:
https://www.uktradeinfo.com/Statistics/Pages/Monthly-Tables.aspx -- Excel spreadsheet
http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/uktrade/uk-trade/july-2015/stb-uk-trade--july-2015.html -- drill down, ONS likes its verbosity
British balance of trade:
http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/balance-of-trade
http://atlas.media.mit.edu/en/profile/country/gbr/
----------------------------
Ignoring bombastic idiots on both sides of the debate for the moment, in my opinion [even if you may hate finance, economics and business (beyond a plucky sole trader)] if both sides settle for the nuclear option on trade, or worse -- case-by-case, sector-by-sector negotiations, dithering and damaging tariff arrangements, temporary or otherwise -- we'll come out much worse for wear at the end of it, swallowing more national debt in the process.
This additional debt will then have to be paid for either via further cuts or more debt, stimulus and higher taxes; neither of which will do that great in a predominantly service-oriented economy reliant on imports. So more debt. Jobs, especially menial jobs, follow trade and money in a climate of robust economic activity, which is affected by national debt and means to stem both its absolute amount and the rate of its accumulation (deficit). Add to that panicked markets, and the greater cost of state borrowing should Brexit + trade punch-up downgrade our credit worthiness.
Low wage workers, who believe their jobs will be more secure if market setters and leaders get shafted, often operate under the illusion of 'no indirect network effects', i.e. 'I can't see how X business activity affects me, so it won't affect me.' fallacy.
People who contend that we can somehow resurrect the 'Imperial Preference' (via WTO? Oh Lordy -- that's a laugh!
), whilst we flap about without a plan (preferred Leave option) to diversify the economy and plug the gap are beyond naive, and really have no clue what things actually cost in time and treasure.You arm flappers are funny.
Soldato
As I said in my previous post, we can't without the EUs tacit approval. The EC decides on this
Recessions are manufactured... The true definition is when the super rich (people and corporations) are losing money or not making any money. In the same way an economic slowdown is where the super rich aren't earning as much as they had hoped.
I think you have just answered the question of what side you should be on there... Welcome to the no camp
Is this more conspiracy talk? Ie, the government and the super rich get together and decide it would be in their interests to have a recession?
I'm not 100% sure that's what you're saying, so I thought I'd ask
- Status