Deleted User 298457
Deleted User 298457
I'm not sure it is possible to talk sense to someone who wanted a "sporty engaging drive" who has ended up with a low spec 320D manual as their goal 
BMW and M Power Owners
- Thread starter panthro
- Start date
Because stop-start traffic with adaptive cruise control works seamlessly with an automatic, and the ZF8 speed is amazing.
A manual is perfect in a Caterham, simple sports car or a **** box, but for daily driving I don't know why you wouldn't get a ZF auto.
Not all auto boxes are good though - the one VAG uses in its Golfs, etc. is a total POS.
![[TW]Fox](/data/man-of-honor/2009.png){kind=avatar}
My personal view is that I see no point in named component - the comprehensive cover is just better and isn't significantly more expensive.
The rest of the decision is just working out what you think is the most likely situation.
For example, you'd need to claim 4 times in a year before £0 excess had a lower annual cost than £100 excess based on those numbers. You'd need to claim twice before £100 excess was cheaper than £250 excess.
So, your cost for a year would be for comprehensive based on the numbers you've given us:
0 claims: £0 excess: £1309, £100 excess £995, £250 excess £793
1 claim: £0 excess: £1309, £100 excess £1095, £250 excess £1043
2 claims: £0 excess: £1309, £100 excess £1195, £250 excess £1293
3 claims: £0 excess: £1309, £100 excess £1295, £250 excess £1543
4 claims: £0 excess: £1309, £100 excess £1395, £250 excess £1793
Nobody can tell you which of those is the best option for you. My personal view is that it's difficult to see a situation where £0 excess is clearly the right choice, but the decision between £100 and £250 is not as clear.
Because you can't put a manual into auto mode when you're in traffic or driving around town and because manuals are much harder to buy?
If you don't care about speed you won't need kickdown. It'll just smoothly and seamlessly accelerate back to whatever speed you want. There is simply nothing to do with your gearbox on a Motorway or a dual carriageway if you don't care about speed and care about ease. Caring about ease of use rather than speed is basically the entire point the automatic gearbox existed in the first place.
I respect that everyones experiences are different (But it's an interesting argument anyway!) but I just can't relate to this problem you've had on dual carriageways and Motorways. I never think about what gear I am in on those roads - if I want to accelerate I just do so, the gearbox sorts everything out quickly and smoothly. You often don't even notice it shift down if it only goes down one gear. Obviously you'll notice if you use kickdown but if you're using that you obviously want maximum performance so doesn't really matter.
I can think of no better combination than a decent engine and this gearbox for effortless motorway driving with a petrol or diesel engine car. It just works. It is much smoother than dual clutch gearboxes, so I am surprised you've found one of those to be smoother. I don't think I've ever heard of a case of a dual clutch being smoother than a traditional torque convertor.
Me neither. The issues I've had were when it was paired with an engine that wasn't particularly powerful for the car it was in, but this was when moving off from stationary and I'm sure it was the engine not the gearbox.
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On the motorway the 8th zf gear probably has a lower ratio, than manual 6th, so may have some additional motorway fuel economy/lower emissions.
cursory google 5th manual like 6th on zf, 6th man 0.846, zf 8th 0.64 ... but maybe there is a final drive ratio to plugin too ; I'm doubting fuel is 5% less at 70mph though, but if it were ....
[being able to manually drop multiple gears directly, too what is required, at roundabout, is another point)
cursory google 5th manual like 6th on zf, 6th man 0.846, zf 8th 0.64 ... but maybe there is a final drive ratio to plugin too ; I'm doubting fuel is 5% less at 70mph though, but if it were ....
[being able to manually drop multiple gears directly, too what is required, at roundabout, is another point)
This is the way.
Soldato
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It's been a couple of years since I owned it and I've owned 4 cars since, so could well have been mistaken
Have no problem with the ZF8 for going from 0 to 70. It's the in-between gear changes where I struggle with it.
I never said it changes up as I approach it. It changes as I'm in the roundabout, so when I go to accelerate, it's in the middle of changing from 3rd to 4th, for example. I hate systems making choices for me. Let me do it myself. Auto high beam? Get in the bin.
But I've said quite a few times now that I don't drive in traffic, nor will it have adaptive cruise a the price I'm looking at.
I've listed so many reasons why I PERSONALLY wouldn't buy a ZF. I've not said other people shouldn't. I've even stated that I recommend it for other people.
Because you can't put a manual into auto mode when you're in traffic or driving around town and because manuals are much harder to buy?
I don't drive in traffic
Nor do I drive around towns.Hard to buy doesn't mean impossible. Why is that even a valid reason to not get one?
"Don't buy that car on Auto trader because it's only one of six, when there are over 100 automatics you could have instead" - c'mon dude, that makes no sense.
But it does kickdown, in my experience.
The auto is programmed to be in the highest possible gear for a speed. So if I'm at 35 in 7th at 1000 RPM it's always going to change down to accelerate (just an example - I don't know which speed corresponds to which gear)
Can't comment much for the PDK in other cars, as I've not spent excessive time in them. I have driven a panamera and Macan GTS and the PDKs in those cars felt quite different from mine and the 911 I drove shortly after. Calibrated for traffic and general use, I imagine.
The PDK in my car is ace. It's dead smooth. But it still changes gear mid corner, in roundabouts and at times I don't want it to. It's just that it is programmed so well that it's EXTREMELY responsive to any throttle input, regardless of the mode I'm in. The ZF8, in my experience, isn't.
The bottom line is that I just enjoy changing gear, even in traffic. I get driving enjoyment from moving the gearstick from 2 to 3. Car/speed irrelevant.
Gear ratio isn't everything. ZF has parasitic loss due to the power required to operate.
From memory, in real world usage, the S drive F30 320d manual on the motorway was more efficient than the S drive 320d auto, at least pre-lci before they updated the ZF with the more efficient version. I only ever saw high 40s in my F31 320d XDrive on a journey from south coast to Wales. I get 40 in my Boxster.
I'm not sure it is possible to talk sense to someone who wanted a "sporty engaging drive" who has ended up with a low spec 320D manual as their goal
I know you're not stupid enough to make up the fact I wanted a "sporty engaging drive".
I've literally got a mid engined sports car for sporty driving.
In fact, for further evidence of why I like manuals - I didn't get one in the 981 because:
- Long gear ratios - over 70 in 2nd, so no real gear changing opportunity for sporty drives
- NA 3.4L engine results in low torque for low RPM pull. Auto is better in this example.
Honestly this conversation is bonkers, IMO.
"I prefer manual"
"You're wrong"
I've been having the same discussion with sales people.
"Auto is easier"
"Auto is more efficient"
"Don't have to replace the clutch"
Great, but I WANT a manual.
Deleted User 298457
Deleted User 298457
I have paperwork to prove I am stupid akkksshually. It was just a synonym phrase for wanting a manual.
I get where you are coming from but there are probably better cars with a manual than 320D - it is just a car that was "intended" to be equipped with an Auto; I am surprised they did a manual at all (Jag XF auto only for example). The point around 100 being available vs. 5 just means there is more choice/specs/"competition" in the market.
It is just a bosch washing machine of a car, so folk are surprised you want to stir your own diesel.
Soldato
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ZF8 has a lock out clutch so im not sure where the parasitics to run it comes from?
Some cars are just too fast for sensible manuals aswell, too much gear changing.
Some cars are just too fast for sensible manuals aswell, too much gear changing.
It makes perfect sense.
It's not a rare sports car, it's a normal every day car. This means that it is likely that many examples won't be great. You could look at 4-5 cars before you find one that is a nice example.
Looking at Autotrader now it looks like only 2% of the available M Sport cars have a manual gearbox. You can see how this is going to prove to be an issue when you start trying to find one that is good enough to buy, especially as the reality is the percentage with a good enough specification is likely even lower as zero specification cars are over represented amongst cars with a manual gearbox.
If you were looking at older cars the argument is different as there are sufficient manuals to allow for a reasonable choice - but this is a generation of car where the manual was never really part of the design process and lasted only a year before being removed from sale.
Kickdown is where it drops to the lowest possible gear for maximum possible performance. It will not do this with normal use of the accelerator, it will drop a gear instead which it does so smoothly most people wouldn't even notice it had done it. You're obviously going to notice kickdown but you'd notice shifting from 6th to 2nd gear in a manual as well, neither are going to be a smooth process
You might be better picking a car where a manual is much easier to find then if it really is that important - although initially you said this car wasn't for you anyway it was for someone else.
Have you looked at the 1 Series instead? There are many more of these with a manual gearbox (35% of the advertised cars from 2019 onwards are manual for the 1 Series M Sport, compared with 2% for the 3 Series M Sport) and the specification you want is available on these as well. It's a car that suits a manual much better as well (the auto isn't that good in these either).
Unfortunately nobody else who buys a 3 Series does, which is why 2020 was the last year it really existed.
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My 428i runs at 1,900rpm at 70mph in 8th.
I was a manual stalwart for a long time other than the odd hire car but I’m a definite automatic convert now. I can’t see me buying a manual stirrer unless it’s a very sporty car, like a hot hatch or something small and light.
I'd say more of a 'moderately sporty, but engaging' type of car that works well with a manual. All the proper high performance stuff is automatic for a good reason nowadays. There's the odd exception but that's all they are - exceptions (Yaris GR and the like).
I reckon the Zf8 even... 16 years on? Is still one of the most capable automatics out there and on cars where the mapping is iffy there are easy options to adress via XHP and the like.
I reckon the Zf8 even... 16 years on? Is still one of the most capable automatics out there and on cars where the mapping is iffy there are easy options to adress via XHP and the like.
Yep, I think you’re wasting your time Fox (though I agree with you).
Soldato
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Out of interest, why do you agree that Fox thinks the automatic is better for me?
is the emissions obligation of the (virtuous) mild hybrid not part of the reason for manual's demise;
as commented before, not a potential reliability issue I'd want as a second hand owner ,
only heard another r4 programme today about car insurance hikes of 50% over last year because cars are increasingly complex to fix, I have only ever priced up manuals (not mhev/zfs)
Soldato
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Can’t say I’ve seen many examples, if any, of ZF8s going wrong on a stock car.
Deleted User 298457
Deleted User 298457
Not a major driver but could be a consideration. Autos just got good and could afford more gears.
I didn’t say that. I think the automatic is better in general.