Poll: Death Penalty - Yay or Nay

Should the death penalty be reinstated?

  • Yes

    Votes: 321 42.6%
  • No

    Votes: 432 57.4%

  • Total voters
    753
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You could have pointed out the fact they are areas of high poverty which HAS been scientifically proven to be linked to crime but you seemed more interested in pointing out the colour of peoples skin:rolleyes:
o

Aye back when the death penalty was pretty common in the UK the crime rate was still high, mainly because of poor detection/solving of serious crimes and a high rate of poverty.

Oddly enough (and this is something that has been shown many times), if you can reduce the poverty level and offer ways of making a reasonable living that don't involve crime the crime level tends to go down.

It's almost like education, opportunity and jobs affect crime rates.

The death penalty is rarely a deterrent, especially for the sorts of lifestyles that lead to the high murder rate in the US, the death penalty for a drug dealer who might get killed by a rival or for some other reason on any given day is not going to scare them off.
 
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I'm happy to troll around for pages, but if you want to overturn the pillars of our justice system, you'll have to do better than that, Fox. So far the weight of evidence is not in your stance's favour, and something's popularity does not, fortunately, dictate the law, punishment and its interpretation in the courts.

Wow, your opinion is better than mine - I bow down to you.

Wow so many 'yes' votes :s

Wow so many 'no' votes :s

Probably the same way that you somehow leapt to the assumption that other people "accept" those events by not wanting the death penalty introduced.

It doesn't affect you so just bury your head in the sand.
Perhaps if it was your wife & daughters who you heard get raped & murdered you'll change your mind but I very much doubt it.
Instead you'd be happy to hug that tree and let the murderers have a roof over their head with 3 meals a day and a chance of rehabilitation.
 
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You could have pointed out the fact they are areas of high poverty which HAS been scientifically proven to be linked to crime but you seemed more interested in pointing out the colour of peoples skin:rolleyes:
Speaks volumes of the sort of person you are imho

It's a troll account... just ignore it.
 
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Wow, your opinion is better than mine - I bow down to you.

Informed opinion is superior to the stuff one pulls out from the backside of history and the darkest recesses of our shared humanity. You're welcome.

The death penalty was not defeated willy-nilly: it took decades of parliamentary battles, history and evidence, particularly in the modern era when our understanding of crime and its causes changed and developed, from the Industrial Revolution onwards as we inched away from religious dogmas and a priori assumptions about justice, natural or otherwise.

You're entitled to your opinion, Fox, but unless you have something genuinely new to offer in way of facts on the subject that overturn the consensus on killing as a form of institutionalised punishment (perhaps the sort of material that wasn't available to the Victorians, the 50s generations or whatever perfect society you prefer), especially regarding its effectiveness and long term moral sustainability, mental health, poverty and its effects on serious crime and how it is treated, I, the justice system and our MPs will stick to the default position.

In general, reducing yourself to the level of crime you're trying to minimise or eliminate from society is a rather regressive way to achieve your aims that takes you further away from the goal -- by precedent you sustain the very behaviour that you seek to change, not to mention the effects it has on the people carrying the sentences out. Indeed, living in fear and steeped in systematic brutality isn't justice -- it's barbarism, which in the case of the death penalty cannot be reversed, checked and balanced or compensated for.

Good luck with the emotional arguments about people's families. To paraphrase the chap who survived the French terror attacks and lost a partner to them, I choose not to hate and move forward with what works.
 
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Good luck with the emotional arguments about people's families. To paraphrase the chap who survived French terror attacks and lost a partner to them, I choose not to hate and move forward with what works.

How very noble. Also fair play to him, it's his choice to forgive and that's fine. It's also fine, as a victim, not to forgive. So the flip side is justice be carried out up to the victims expectations. To negate a victims right for an eschatological outcome is a failure of justice in my opinion. Having said that, we do elect a jury of 12 peers to consider our justice and ultimately this is where the buck stops.

I think the problem with the current system is not that the criminals get away with crime but that they do not pay the fine imposed to a satisfactory extent. A recrudescence of capital punishment may not be the ultimate answer as it is somewhat arbitrary but in certain cases where it's signed, sealed and delivered then I see no problem with it.

BTW, I voted No in this.
 
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How very noble. Also fair play to him, it's his choice to forgive and that's fine. It's also fine, as a victim, not to forgive. So the flip side is justice be carried out up to the victims expectations. To negate a victims right for an eschatological outcome is a failure of justice in my opinion. Having said that, we do elect a jury of 12 peers to consider our justice and ultimately this is where the buck stops.

I think the problem with the current system is not that the criminals get away with crime but that they do not pay the fine imposed to a satisfactory extent. A recrudescence of capital punishment may not be the ultimate answer as it is somewhat arbitrary but in certain cases where it's signed, sealed and delivered then I see no problem with it.

BTW, I voted No in this.

And that's where the difference lies in what people perceive as justice and what the state institutes to hold the society together -- a reactive system which weighs anti-social behaviour against the cost to the social contract of treating it one way or the other; all forms of punishment, containment and rehabilitation have a social cost. It's a balanced compromise; satisfaction isn't really a part of it, as this is subjective, malleable and can be affected by the language of argument deployed in any given case.

The victim of crime seeks closure. The state seeks to minimise, deter, recover from and prevent if possible the sort of aberrant behaviour it defines as a risk to its members by precedent and reasonable evidence, including re-offending. Hence the removal of the emotional response of the victim in the moment from the equation and our process of mediating justice through the cases of the prosecution, the defence and the jury vote, not to forget the judge's legal interpretation; also the need to prove guilt beyond reasonable doubt, especially in cases of circumstantial evidence, wrong identity, faulty witness statements (patchy recall of events alone is a big issue), etc, as we currently have. It's not perfect, emotions fly any which way still, but the facts, however much people might not like them, do get considered and likewise for the long-term effect on our shared law and its interpretation, which is more important than any particular case.

As far as punishment goes, you take your pick between what actually has an effect and what simply creates a violent society, a slippery slope and a murder industry (which interestingly may inflate costs of incarceration and processing -- people have to be kept until they are executed, and you have to pay for whatever means of execution is adopted en masse; a similar argument crops up regarding the current role of sanctions in the realm of social security). For someone wanting to hurt a criminal back at any cost, no price is too high and damn the consequences; whilst for someone who still wants to keep the whole society ticking over, violence and its applications give room for pause.

Yes, this means the Daily Mail, the Spectator or some such rag will get to harp on about some heinous devil getting a release after X number of years on a life sentence, but if it continues to reduce the murder rate at the current pace, it's a price worth paying.

The reverse: killing people, including innocents, in the vain hope it eventually gets or dissuades all the killers in society, without a similarly associated drops in murder rates, but leaves the occasional victim's relation content, does not really have such a price. It's simply not worth it. Indeed, for most extreme cases self-defence is already accounted for, armed police will shoot to kill and so will our armed forces and intelligence agents authorised to do so (but again, not without review and oversight); which I feel, in combination with life sentencing, mental health provisions in law and its review, is better than the capital punishment systems being adopted at large.
 
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Soldato
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And that's where the difference lies in what people perceive as justice and what the state institutes to hold the society together -- a reactive system which weighs anti-social behaviour against the cost to the social contract of treating it one way or the other; all forms of punishment, containment and rehabilitation have a social cost. It's a balanced compromise; satisfaction isn't really a part of it, as this is subjective, malleable and can be affected by the language of argument deployed in any given case.

The victim of crime seeks closure. The state seeks to minimise, deter, recover from and prevent if possible the sort of aberrant behaviour it defines as a risk to its members by precedent and reasonable evidence, including re-offending. Hence the removal of the emotional response of the victim in the moment from the equation and our process of mediating justice through the cases of the prosecution, the defence and the jury vote, not to forget the judge's legal interpretation; also the need to prove guilt beyond reasonable doubt, especially in cases of circumstantial evidence, wrong identity, faulty witness statements (patchy recall of events alone is a big issue), etc, as we currently have. It's not perfect, emotions fly any which way still, but the facts, however much people might not like them, do get considered and likewise for the long-term effect on our shared law and its interpretation, which is more important than any particular case.

As far as punishment goes, you take your pick between what actually has an effect and what simply creates a violent society, a slippery slope and a murder industry (which interestingly may inflate costs of incarceration and processing -- people have to be kept until they are executed, and you have to pay for whatever means of execution is adopted en masse; a similar argument crops up regarding the current role of sanctions in the realm of social security). For someone wanting to hurt a criminal back at any cost, no price is too high and damn the consequence; whilst for someone who still wants to keep the whole society ticking over, violence and its applications give room for pause.

Yes, this means the Daily Mail, the Spectator or some such rag will get to harp on about some heinous devil getting a release after X number of years on a life sentence, but if it continues to reduce the murder rate at the current pace, it's a price worth paying.

The reverse: killing people, including innocents, in the vain hope it eventually gets or dissuades all the killers in society, without a similarly associated drops in murder rates, but leaves the occasional victim's relation content, does not really have such a price. It's simply not worth it. Indeed, for most extreme cases self-defence is already accounted for, armed police will shoot to kill and so will our armed forces and intelligence agents authorised to do so (but again, not without review and oversight); which I feel, in combination with life sentencing, mental health provisions in law and its review, is better than the capital punishment systems being adopted at large.

You said a lot there but nothing resonated in my echo chamber. Not a personal slight toward you, but toward your argument. To be clear, what is your position on capital punishment? Are you pro, against, undecided?
 
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[/SPOILER]

You said a lot there but nothing resonated in my echo chamber. Not a personal slight toward you, but toward your argument. To be clear, what is your position on capital punishment? Are you pro, against, undecided? In-decided?

I'm firmly against reinstatement and capital punishment in general. As a method, it has no capacity to resolve the problems its supporters purport it addresses.
 
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I'm firmly against reinstatement and capital punishment in general. As a method, it has no capacity to resolve the problems its supporters purport it addresses.

So I assume a person like Anders Breivik deserves the sentence he received rather than the diametrically opposed view that he should have been executed. ???
 
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So I assume a person like Anders Breivik deserves the sentence he received rather than the diametrically opposed view that he should have been executed. ???

In the Norwegian system, yes. In some US jurisdictions, the answers would've been the reverse. But then I look at the differences produced by the two justice systems in terms of murder rates, instances of serial and politically motivated killings, and I take the Norwegian answer. Given enough time, extreme cases will test whatever system you institute, it doesn't mean you should make an exception for every extreme case. You follow through with the process, do not institutionalise fruitless hatred and move on with your life, as the Norwegians have done. Last time I checked, the summer camp Breivik attacked has returned and he is incarcerated. He neither deserves special treatment or excess publicity or excess brutality; he is a violent criminal whose tinfoil cause was lost, and is just another prisoner in the system at present -- good. Martyring people like that is far more dangerous than letting them stir in containment till near pensionable age, taking distance learning courses, or whatever he fought for to get. Again, what torturing, brutalising or killing him will achieve exactly? Very little of what the relatives of the victims would hope for: it cannot bring the dead back; it has a proven track record of not deterring politically motivated killings; it would psychologically harm the person who would be in charge of administering the violence against him. But, in the system as is, if you take someone like Breivik (who was declared sane) and rehabilitate them so that they never kill again and publicly reject violence, however small the chance, that is a greater victory than simply offing him; and that is what the Norwegian system favours.

It actually 100% addresses & resolves the problem, it takes a piece of scum of the Earth.

Well, that's nice and simple.

No, it does not. The act is done. The scum is part of the problem. You kill him, tomorrow there's another murder and you kill that scum too. Then there is a mass killing by a political extremist or a teenager with mental health issues. You kill them too, but the murders keep coming. Then you kill a chap who happened to be at the wrong time at the wrong place, falsely identified as the killer because he was a troublemaker on a troubled estate and had a record of petty crime; witnesses then change their statements after the fact, the real killer is found and you kill him too. The cycle goes on and on. How long before you address murder in society and its causes, mental health and recovery from such extreme behaviour? Killing someone doesn't win the argument against them or erase their behaviour.
 
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I must admit datalol-jack that only you should be speaking for the naysayers in this thread. Your arguments are very well presented without resulting to insults and I applaud you.
However, I still believe in extreme cases we should execute if there is 100% refutable proof.
 
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I must admit datalol-jack that only you should be speaking for the naysayers in this thread. Your arguments are very well presented without resulting to insults and I applaud you.
However, I still believe in extreme cases we should execute if there is 100% refutable proof.

I take yours and Silver's points on board too. We do however appear to differ on how to handle extreme cases and what closure capital punishment offers.
 
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However, I still believe in extreme cases we should execute if there is 100% refutable proof.

Indeed. Insults are...well insults, deserved in some cases and in others...not so much. Still part of a healthy discussion though. When a case is 100% with a confession then it seems silly not to throw the book at the defendant. Having said that, 1 in 4 of American prisoners on Death Row is thought to be innocent. Quite a problem for those who are pro capital punishment.
 
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I take yours and Silver's points on board too. We do however appear to differ on how to handle extreme cases and what closure capital punishment offers.

This is what some posters don't understand, I don't expect you or anybody to take my points onboard, they are my opinions and I'm not going to force them on anybody. However I expect to give my opinion without being insulted, even a Mod thought it was Ok to do so just because people disagree with him (the anonymous quote).
 
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This is what some posters don't understand, I don't expect you or anybody to take my points onboard, they are my opinions and I'm not going to force them on anybody. However I expect to give my opinion without being insulted, even a Mod thought it was Ok to do so just because people disagree with him (the anonymous quote).

Awful, truly. However todays downs are tomorrows fish and chip paper. Chin up chap and move on. ;)
 

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RDM

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I must admit datalol-jack that only you should be speaking for the naysayers in this thread. Your arguments are very well presented without resulting to insults and I applaud you.
However, I still believe in extreme cases we should execute if there is 100% refutable proof.

Making laws to cover the extremes is never really good law making. As their are extreme cases they will be pretty rare so the death penalty with have little overall impact. So why have it at all?
 
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In the Norwegian system, yes. In some US jurisdictions, the answers would've been the reverse. But then I look at the differences produced by the two justice systems in terms of murder rates, instances of serial and politically motivated killings, and I take the Norwegian answer. Given enough time, extreme cases will test whatever system you institute, it doesn't mean you should make an exception for every extreme case. You follow through with the process, do not institutionalise fruitless hatred and move on with your life, as the Norwegians have done. Last time I checked, the summer camp Breivik attacked has returned and he is incarcerated. He neither deserves special treatment or excess publicity or excess brutality; he is a violent criminal whose tinfoil cause was lost, and is just another prisoner in the system at present -- good. Martyring people like that is far more dangerous than letting them stir in containment till near pensionable age, taking distance learning courses, or whatever he fought for to get. Again, what torturing, brutalising or killing him will achieve exactly? Very little of what the relatives of the victims would hope for: it cannot bring the dead back; it has a proven track record of not deterring politically motivated killings; it would psychologically harm the person who would be in charge of administering the violence against him. But, in the system as is, if you take someone like Breivik (who was declared sane) and rehabilitate them so that they never kill again and publicly reject violence, however small the chance, that is a greater victory than simply offing him; and that is what the Norwegian system favours.



Well, that's nice and simple.

No, it does not. The act is done. The scum is part of the problem. You kill him, tomorrow there's another murder and you kill that scum too. Then there is a mass killing by a political extremist or a teenager with mental health issues. You kill them too, but the murders keep coming. Then you kill a chap who happened to be at the wrong time at the wrong place, falsely identified as the killer because he was a troublemaker on a troubled estate and had a record of petty crime; witnesses then change their statements after the fact, the real killer is found and you kill him too. The cycle goes on and on. How long before you address murder in society and its causes, mental health and recovery from such extreme behaviour? Killing someone doesn't win the argument against them or erase their behaviour.
As noble as your argument is, would you be prepared to stake the lives of innocent people on Breivik being sincere in the rehabilitation process, and not simply saying what the professionals want to hear so he can facilitate his release to carry on his murder campaign?

As much as I'd like to see evil scum like him executed, I think I'd rather they be placed in solitary confinement for the rest of their lives, with zero interaction with anybody, ever.
 
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