Poll: Death Penalty - Yay or Nay

Should the death penalty be reinstated?

  • Yes

    Votes: 321 42.6%
  • No

    Votes: 432 57.4%

  • Total voters
    753
Soldato
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No. Given miscarriages of justice and the fact it costs more to imprison for life than to kill if you do it 'respectably, primarily.

I'm going to vote no in a minute. But consider the situation the US faced with Osama Bin Lid. They could have brought him back to stand trial, but they executed him. Now personally I thought that decision was justified. Some people need to despatched. But I agree, miscarriages of justice are terrible and a very strong argument for No.
 
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Still no.

So if your partner and children were murdered (assuming you're married with kids) and the killer admits it in court, are you still going to be altruistic enough to spare him/her from the gallows? Personally, I think I might go for death penalty. Four years ago my cousin was murdered in a very brutal way by her alcoholic scum bag partner. He got 12.5 years. 12.5 years for murdering a mother of two who was nothing but nice to everyone her whole life. My family are livid about this leniency but without capital punishment all we can do is await his release. :(
 
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There's times where I think people deserve to die but I can't say I'd be happy with us implementing capital punishment. To me the death penalty is nothing more than a legal revenge system.

"An Eye for an Eye Will Make the Whole World Blind" or something.

Yeah this is a difficult topic, but even though I didn't vote Yay in this thread, I still believe there are exceptions to every rule. Osama Bin Lid being the most notable. Anders Breivik being another and of course my cousins scum bag murderer.
 
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Correct me if I'm wrong but don't we still have the death penalty available for certain crimes (I think treason is one) even though it would probably never be used?

I'll correct you. :)

Hanging, drawing and quartering was often employed. The last treason trial was that of William Joyce, "Lord Haw-Haw", who was executed by hanging in 1946. Since the Crime and Disorder Act 1998 became law, the maximum sentence for treason in the UK has been life imprisonment.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_treason_in_the_United_Kingdom
 
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The death penalty certainly doesn't seem to act as a deterrent in the US, which is about the only real reason for it over prison.

The reason for this is far less about the death penalty but on these two factors:

1. America's drugs war (Which is a fail) incarcerates an disproportionate amount of it's civilians for drug offences. Most blacks and Hispanics who end up in prison for nothing more than a little weed in their pockets.

2. America uses it's prisoners as a form of slave labour. Forcing them to manufacture things like armoured vests for the military and benign things like car number plates and tins of paint.

So in summation, they have a political self interest in retaining the status-quo. I believe I read that America comprises 4% of the worlds population but 25% of the worlds prison population. No other country on Earth incarcerates more of it's population than the US.
 
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Yes, and I am happy to start practising my knots and hefting sacks of sand if a job's in the offing. Those two kids who knifed the mother and daughter would be a good test of the gallows. Then all traitors who come back to the UK from fighting for IS or others that are against UK national interests in a military fashion whilst enjoying our hospitality. In fact I'd have an orderly queue formed... ;)

You're just a bad ass. Run for Office in America, your votes will be many my son.
 
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Got nothing to do with the moral weight of the decision making for me. I just do not believe a state that exercises the threat of death can expect it's general public to be decent and honest. It should reflect only the best qualities it expects in it's people. Killing someone does not balance out some universal scale of decency. It is a worthless, lazy and morally cheap way of dealing with miscreants that does nothing to address the root cause of crime.

Not in every case though. Several cases which are black and white have been mentioned in this thread and there are probably thousands every year where you could say without doubt that 'X' happened and 'Y' is the perpetrator. So it's as simple as you say. Some people do not deserve the right to exist amongst the rest of us, that is just a fact. Just like when the police shoot a mad dog for killing a baby human...............
 
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I'm an atheist, so I believe when you die it's just like going to sleep, therefore I don't support the death penalty. The guilty should be made to live in suffering for as long as possible. There is no rehabilitation for murderers.

I share your sentiments as a fellow atheist myself. However, playing devils advocate, I could say, what is the cost to the society in keeping a nutjob killer incarcerated for the rest of his natural life? It's cheaper and simpler and safer just to eliminate the scum bag.

That's not my view in most cases, but in some it is.
 
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You can overturn a life sentence. You can't overturn 'dead'.

People who have life sentences overturned are incredibly rare today though and likely to be rarer in the future with current advances in DNA profiling and forensics in general. When it does happen it's great but the person has usually spent most of his/her life in prison already, so justice not done as the real killer is still out there. This is the flip side to the executing the innocent argument. It's also why America has Death Row. It' gives the accused perhaps decades to make successful appeal. Take a look at one the America's most infamous serial killers, Richard Ramirez.

Ramirez died of complications secondary to B-cell lymphoma at Marin General Hospital in Greenbrae, California, on June 7, 2013.[96][109][110] He had also been affected by "chronic substance abuse and chronic hepatitis C viral infection".[109] At 53 years old, he had been on death row for more than 23 years.

23 years to get his conviction overturned and it still wasn't long enough to send him to the electric chair/gas chamber/lethal injection.

He was 100% guilty but managed to spend 23 years of tax payers money on appeals and incarceration fees trying to get off. Instead of bottle necking the justice system with people like him, they should have just executed him.

So there are cases for each side. Maybe the lesson is there is no absolute fix and so logically a combination of the two is the right approach.
 
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B
Like I said, it only takes a single miscarriage of justice in my eyes to make it not worthwhile.

But that argument flips both ways.

Charles 'Tex' Watson, lieutenant to the infamous Charles Manson, took the lead in 8/9 murders or more in the summer of 1969. In the 80s he was allowed conjugal visits while in prison and fathered two children. He is still alive today and actively seeking parole, after admitting to ALL his crimes and meanwhile costing the tax payer a small fortune.

That's why I started this thread. It's not as black and white when you dig into it. Name me a rule that doesn't have an exception?
 
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Soldato
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Or more rationally, instead of spending so much tax payers money trying to kill someone they should have locked him up in a cell and thrown away the key, metaphorically. Would be much cheaper and more ethical.

It's clearly cheaper to execute a person as opposed to 3/4/5 decades of incarceration. As for the ethical aspect, I could say to execute the prisoner would relieve him/her of decades of torment being locked up in a high security prison. It would also give the victims a sense of closure, something I feel has been overlooked in this thread so far. After all, it's the victims families who have the torment of a trail and the appeals that go on for decades where they need, or at asked, to attend. It's like the nightmare never ends for them, unless of course they are executed.
 
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It maybe cheaper to murder an innocent person rather than re-examine the evidence but that doesn't make it the morally acceptable thing to do.

I know. You have just highlighted ONE aspect of this situation. This thread has many other aspects. Judge and make your view based on all please.
 
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That one aspect is why what you suggest is impossible in a civilized country.

Please excuse me but I'm going to stop replying to your posts in this thread. It's nothing personal, I'm sure you are a wonderful human being, fellow homo sapien, fabulous great ape and fellow mammal. However, I need some biscuits from the store, and I need them now. So I'm going to twoddle off and get them and come back and talk to someone else. This is nothing personal it's based on the combination of alphabetic symbols you promulgated a little earlier. Ok, so that's that then. Have a lovely evening and all the best to your family.
 
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I haven't read the last few pages because it's probably full of rubbish but my answer is NO, absolutely not. But i do believe Life should mean Life

Absolutely, life should mean life. As I've mentioned in this thread, I lost a cousin to a murderous BF and all he got was 12.5 years. They called that a life sentence. WTF? How is 12.5 years a life sentence? Anyway, I think a life sentence should be nothing less than 40 years. Preferably prison without parole.
 
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Good luck with the emotional arguments about people's families. To paraphrase the chap who survived French terror attacks and lost a partner to them, I choose not to hate and move forward with what works.

How very noble. Also fair play to him, it's his choice to forgive and that's fine. It's also fine, as a victim, not to forgive. So the flip side is justice be carried out up to the victims expectations. To negate a victims right for an eschatological outcome is a failure of justice in my opinion. Having said that, we do elect a jury of 12 peers to consider our justice and ultimately this is where the buck stops.

I think the problem with the current system is not that the criminals get away with crime but that they do not pay the fine imposed to a satisfactory extent. A recrudescence of capital punishment may not be the ultimate answer as it is somewhat arbitrary but in certain cases where it's signed, sealed and delivered then I see no problem with it.

BTW, I voted No in this.
 
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And that's where the difference lies in what people perceive as justice and what the state institutes to hold the society together -- a reactive system which weighs anti-social behaviour against the cost to the social contract of treating it one way or the other; all forms of punishment, containment and rehabilitation have a social cost. It's a balanced compromise; satisfaction isn't really a part of it, as this is subjective, malleable and can be affected by the language of argument deployed in any given case.

The victim of crime seeks closure. The state seeks to minimise, deter, recover from and prevent if possible the sort of aberrant behaviour it defines as a risk to its members by precedent and reasonable evidence, including re-offending. Hence the removal of the emotional response of the victim in the moment from the equation and our process of mediating justice through the cases of the prosecution, the defence and the jury vote, not to forget the judge's legal interpretation; also the need to prove guilt beyond reasonable doubt, especially in cases of circumstantial evidence, wrong identity, faulty witness statements (patchy recall of events alone is a big issue), etc, as we currently have. It's not perfect, emotions fly any which way still, but the facts, however much people might not like them, do get considered and likewise for the long-term effect on our shared law and its interpretation, which is more important than any particular case.

As far as punishment goes, you take your pick between what actually has an effect and what simply creates a violent society, a slippery slope and a murder industry (which interestingly may inflate costs of incarceration and processing -- people have to be kept until they are executed, and you have to pay for whatever means of execution is adopted en masse; a similar argument crops up regarding the current role of sanctions in the realm of social security). For someone wanting to hurt a criminal back at any cost, no price is too high and damn the consequence; whilst for someone who still wants to keep the whole society ticking over, violence and its applications give room for pause.

Yes, this means the Daily Mail, the Spectator or some such rag will get to harp on about some heinous devil getting a release after X number of years on a life sentence, but if it continues to reduce the murder rate at the current pace, it's a price worth paying.

The reverse: killing people, including innocents, in the vain hope it eventually gets or dissuades all the killers in society, without a similarly associated drops in murder rates, but leaves the occasional victim's relation content, does not really have such a price. It's simply not worth it. Indeed, for most extreme cases self-defence is already accounted for, armed police will shoot to kill and so will our armed forces and intelligence agents authorised to do so (but again, not without review and oversight); which I feel, in combination with life sentencing, mental health provisions in law and its review, is better than the capital punishment systems being adopted at large.

You said a lot there but nothing resonated in my echo chamber. Not a personal slight toward you, but toward your argument. To be clear, what is your position on capital punishment? Are you pro, against, undecided?
 
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Soldato
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I'm firmly against reinstatement and capital punishment in general. As a method, it has no capacity to resolve the problems its supporters purport it addresses.

So I assume a person like Anders Breivik deserves the sentence he received rather than the diametrically opposed view that he should have been executed. ???
 
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