Hillsborough inquest verdict.

[Tummy]

estebanrey, seems you still fail to grasp what has happened even after it has been explained time and time again to you.

For some of us, who had friends and family at that match, this is great, fantastic news.

I doubt police will be found guilty of this, because that is not how the police in this country work, this entire 27 year saga is an example of that.

The fans were not at fault, they were forced in to the pen, thinking that it was safe, by the police.

 

[Scam]

I wouldn't worry, you'll get a lot of people jumping on you because you were honest enough to say what you thought, hell, you've even had a Don make a rather underhand comment.

I should listen to you, but heck I'm bored at work so I'll persist..

Please, stop commenting, you are only going to embarrass yourself.

How am I embarrassing myself exactly?

There's a couple more mistakes made by fans which would have been a contributing factor;
Some fans had gone in the wrong entrances/turnstiles. Some fans were refused entry which I guess is because they didn't have a ticket, or had the wrong ticket. Also when they opened Gate C as far as I can make it fans used it as an entrance to further overcrowd the area. Which was a mistake.

Important note; I'm not "victim blaming" I'm merely pointing out that many, many mistakes were made by a lot of different people involved. I personally can't see how the police should be prosecuted for manslaughter (i.e. actions leading to a death) but if most people are aggrieved because SY police hid evidence etc. then they should be pushing for them to be punished for perverting the course of justice.

AHarvey is right. A common theme with this story is that a lot of people seem to take it very, very personally. I don't understand why. Disasters happen every day.

 

[Danthus]

And now they have it, will it make things better, I doubt it, will make them happy, I doubt it.

Will it bring the relative & friends back, no.

It's time they moved on with their lives & stop living in the past. They can never change it.

This inquest has uncovered new evidence and rightly so, the CPS will assess it and go from there.

 

[Danthus]

I should listen to you, but heck I'm bored at work so I'll persist..

How am I embarrassing myself exactly?

There's a couple more mistakes made by fans which would have been a contributing factor;
Some fans had gone in the wrong entrances/turnstiles. Some fans were refused entry which I guess is because they didn't have a ticket, or had the wrong ticket. Also when they opened Gate C as far as I can make it fans used it as an entrance to further overcrowd the area. Which was a mistake.

Important note; I'm not "victim blaming" I'm merely pointing out that many, many mistakes were made by a lot of different people involved. I personally can't see how the police should be prosecuted for manslaughter (i.e. actions leading to a death) but if most people are aggrieved because SY police hid evidence etc. then they should be pushing for them to be punished for perverting the course of justice.

AHarvey is right. A common theme with this story is that a lot of people seem to take it very, very personally. I don't understand why. Disasters happen every day.

The jury found the behavior of the fans did not contribute to the disaster.

The actions of the police after the crush began delayed help getting to the fans.

 

[Tummy]

I should listen to you, but heck I'm bored at work so I'll persist..

How am I embarrassing myself exactly?

There's a couple more mistakes made by fans which would have been a contributing factor;
Some fans had gone in the wrong entrances/turnstiles. Some fans were refused entry which I guess is because they didn't have a ticket, or had the wrong ticket. Also when they opened Gate C as far as I can make it fans used it as an entrance to further overcrowd the area. Which was a mistake.

Important note; I'm not "victim blaming" I'm merely pointing out that many, many mistakes were made by a lot of different people involved. I personally can't see how the police should be prosecuted for manslaughter (i.e. actions leading to a death) but if most people are aggrieved because SY police hid evidence etc. then they should be pushing for them to be punished for perverting the course of justice.

AHarvey is right. A common theme with this story is that a lot of people seem to take it very, very personally. I don't understand why. Disasters happen every day.

A jury disagree's with you, but you obviously know better.

The jury found the behaviour of the fans did not contribute to this, the police prevented help from getting to the fans, 41 deaths could have been avoided.

 

[ColdAsIce]

Very easy to look back at the glaring errors of the Police/Ambulance/Stadium staff after every detail is picked apart and evaluated for years.

During the event it was probably chaos with the situation changing every second. The Police officer in charge was way out of his depth and his selfish nature was to protect himself. Thankfully he has been ripped apart by the media and those investigating the events over the years.

He probably should face charges for his part in all of this too.

 

[Danthus]

Very easy to look back at the glaring errors of the Police/Ambulance/Stadium staff after every detail is picked apart and evaluated for years.

During the event it was probably chaos with the situation changing every second. The Police officer in charge was way out of his depth and his selfish nature was to protect himself. Thankfully he has been ripped apart by the media and those investigating the events over the years.

He probably should face charges for his part in all of this too.

I was going to add something similar.

The problem is, there is a point in time where there was a considered effort to shift the blame onto the fans.

 

[Tummy]

AHarvey is right. A common theme with this story is that a lot of people seem to take it very, very personally. I don't understand why. Disasters happen every day.

Do you know anything about this? 41 people died, their deaths preventable. That is not the same as 'well disasters happen every day' ********.

I take it personally because I had friends and family there, I take it personally because it happened at the ground where I hold a season ticket. Football fans all over the world should take this personally, football fans are a enormous family, this was avoidable, the police lied, they made football fans out to be something they were not.

 

[antijoke]

This isn't worth it.

I'm out.

 

[ColdAsIce]

I wouldn't blame the fans but I can also see how easy panic can escalate.

I've been involved in some crush situations at football games in the mid 90s. This was with fans that were generally happy due to us winning etc but things quickly got out of control. Like people racing to the front to get a closer look at the players to celebrate etc.

Quite scary how fast and easy a choke point is created.

Was also watching Scotland vs Italy in Italy. Some crazy Italian Ultras started firing flares at the Scottish fans and fighting some of them in the stand below. Again very scary how quickly panic can set in.

 

[Scam]

The jury found the behavior of the fans did not contribute to the disaster.

Yet there were fans in the wrong place and they did enter through Gate C, correct?

The actions of the police after the crush began delayed help getting to the fans.

No-one disagrees with this..

Very easy to look back at the glaring errors of the Police/Ambulance/Stadium staff after every detail is picked apart and evaluated for years.

This.

Do you know anything about this? 41 people died, their deaths preventable. That is not the same as 'well disasters happen every day' ********.

Sorry to break it to you, but a lot of disasters are avoidable and only happen because a combination of mistakes.

I take it personally because I had friends and family there, I take it personally because it happened at the ground where I hold a season ticket. Football fans all over the world should take this personally, football fans are a enormous family, this was avoidable, the police lied, they made football fans out to be something they were not.

I always hear about this 'family' aspect and I think this is a real problem. Football fans have always been 'them against us' with regards to the police and it's this attitude that is purveyed through this whole story. Like I said, a lot of people talk as if the police went marching in there and started executing the fans.

 

[kindai]

I agree that the truth of the deception needed to be officially confirmed, after all the authorities need to be entirely transparent for various reasons, so I am happy that the verdicts of the inquest have fallen as they have.

However those who are getting aggressive or personal towards other members, get a grip, seriously. Some people may not have a detailed knowledge and genuinely want to know more, by getting arsey with them you just make yourselves look like dicks.

 

[Danthus]

Yet there were fans in the wrong place and they did enter through Gate C, correct?

Why did they go to gate C?

Sorry to break it to you, but a lot of disasters are avoidable and only happen because a combination of mistakes.

That was the purpose of the inquest and it duly delivered its verdict.

I always hear about this 'family' aspect and I think this is a real problem. Football fans have always been 'them against us' with regards to the police and it's this attitude that is purveyed through this whole story. Like I said, a lot of people talk as if the police went marching in there and started executing the fans.

Stop digging. Or would you like a bigger shovel?

 

[The_Abyss]

I've followed the inquest with a good deal of interest, ever since the result of the 2012 panel report that overturned the original inquests from 1991. That was a bit of a game changer for me. I'll openly admit that, until that point, I had assumed that what the original inquests found were likely to be close to the truth, and that the victims' families were on a crusade because they were unable to agree with the verdicts. I watched the match on TV too, but with no connection to any victim or football club I didn't think much more of it at the time.

To learn that there were failings with the football ground and even the ambulance service wasn't so much of a surprise. Anything being picked over to that level of scrutiny would like come out with 'could do better' at best. But the real shock to me was the breathtaking cover-up orchestrated by the police, a coverup that began whilst some of the victims were still alive and a coverup that then continued over more than two decades.

It is utterly, utterly shameful, and completely shatters confidence in the behaviour and motives of the police (yes, I accept that many did their duty to the best of their ability that day). What the inquest has uncovered is a complete and wilful betrayal of the public trust. That is why this inquest has been so, so important. There should be a measure of consequence for those who failed the victims, and that consequence should be most severe for those who not only failed them but who constructed a web of lies and deceit to cover up their own failings.

 

[Scam]

Why did they go to gate C?

I don't know? Do you?

That was the purpose of the inquest and it duly delivered its verdict.

And that was essentially the question in my first post. To an outsider the whole story seems like the families want the police (as a whole) prosecuted for 96 murders for the whole incident, such is the vilification of the police from their side. Whereas most people know it was a terrible accident that could have been avoided if a combination of mistakes by all parties were avoided. And yes the police tried to cover their mistakes for which they should be punished.

 

[Danthus]

I don't know? Do you?

No, but the jury have spent two years listening to the evidence so I am happy to accept they do.

And that was essentially the question in my first post. To an outsider the whole story seems like the families want the police (as a whole) prosecuted for 96 murders for the whole incident, such is the vilification of the police from their side. Whereas most people know it was a terrible accident that could have been avoided if a combination of mistakes by all parties were avoided. And yes the police tried to cover their mistakes for which they should be punished.

Go and Google Trevor Hicks and then make a judgement of the families, he has been nothing other than dignified, he is more than happy to praise the officers that helped the victims.

That man lost two daughters and only sought the truth, his marriage fell apart and all he ever wanted was justice.

 

[Raggs]

just watched the Panorama Special - Hillsborough again on you tube, shocking 116 statements where tampered with and vetted all comments Criticising the police where removed.

dukenfield lied from the getgo saying the exterior large gate was broken into by fans. when it was he who orded it opened. and then he failed to block the tunnel by this time the central pens where full to capacity.

 

[Tummy]

Sorry to break it to you, but a lot of disasters are avoidable and only happen because a combination of mistakes.

That was the purpose of the inquest and it duly delivered its verdict.

Indeed.

I always hear about this 'family' aspect and I think this is a real problem. Football fans have always been 'them against us' with regards to the police and it's this attitude that is purveyed through this whole story. Like I said, a lot of people talk as if the police went marching in there and started executing the fans.

Why is having my family and friends at this disaster a problem?

Football fans have spent 27 years trying to get the truth, the police lied, have covered up, to protect themselves and to vilify the football fans that died that day, and football fans in general. Do you seriously not understand why then, it would become a 'them against us' type scenario. You cannot be that obtuse on purpose.

The police lied. The police covered up. The police protected themselves. The police failed to protect those football fans.

 

[balky12]

Mistakes were obviously made and I am glad for the families that have fought for so long. Police made a bad situation worse. Hopefully the families can have some closure.

However some of the blame needs to rest with those supporters who never had tickets and crowded in with honest ticket holders...

 

[Tummy]

However some of the blame needs to rest with those supporters who never had tickets and crowded in with honest ticket holders...

No, not according to the jury, the fans are not to blame. Go away.